Oh my God…now they’re using Willy Pete
Oh my God. The US are using weapons of war in a war
ROME — Italian television aired a documentary yesterday alleging that the United States had used white phosphorus shells ”in a massive and indiscriminate way” against civilians in the November 2004 offensive in the Iraqi town of Fallujah.
“White phosphorus kills indiscriminately.”says My Way News. So do most weapons of war dipshit. Artillery shells, machine guns, rockets, hand grenades and air delivered bombs all have the ability to kill indiscriminately. The big difference is the Coalition do not deliberately target woman and kids. The terrorists do – like car bombs at employment queues.
Maybe the same Italian company could make a documentary about these guys and how they deliberately target non-combatants.
Wonder if the MSM would pick it up and run with it?
Nah.
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I am always interested to hear people are so naive to think that the coalition forces and in particular US forces do not at time kill on an indiscrimnate basis innocent civilians. Please read reputable reports of the attitude of some of the forces such as the marines to the civilian population. The nature of their training dehumanises the enemy and also their atttitude to civilians.
I recall today that one former Marine when asked about their general attitude to civilians and the efect of the war on them was : “we don’t give a shit”. This is the same attitude that got them into trouble in Vietnam. They also failed in that war to win the hearts and minds of the general populace.
I believe that even though must Iraqis were happy to see off Saddam that the point of the invasion was to replace it with something better.
The Pentagon has released belatedly the figures of those killed since the fall of Saddam. Not all been killed by Insurgents alone and many have also been killed by coalition forces.
The US has lost so much prestige and more importantly respect in the World escpecially in Europe and more dangerously through out the Middle East. Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay etc etc. If the US want the Middle East muslims to adopt democracy they must show that they actually act “democratically”.
The use of torture, the rendering of prisoners in covert locations and the abuse of many others away from the scrutiny of the Red Cross leave me no doubt that the US has lost the PR war. How can you tell others to do as we say when they present those examples to the arab and muslim world. I would have thought that this is a hypocritical attitude.How can they win the hearts and minds when they act in this way.
The country is now riven with ethnic and religious hostility. The Sunnis against the Shia and the Kurds probably the target of both Shia and Sunni. The country is sliding into civil war and there is nothing that the US can do about it. It is also sliding to the point where it will be a client state of Iran. Why do you think that Iran is funneling money, explosive know how and fighters into the country. They don’t want a secular muslim state on their boundary. It ian’t going to happen no matter what Bush and Rumsfeld say.The US are currently in the process of “Vietnamisation” of the Iraqi forces.
Remember Vietnamisation back in the early 1970’s in Vietnam. In modern day Iraq it is code for an exit strategy.It was an excuse to get out because the tide of public opinion had turned against the US remaining in Vietnam and Nixon had to get them out. The casualty rate is not as high as Vietnam but I saw some commentator saying that the casualty rate in Iraq is higher than in the first years of the war in Vietnam. How the US forgets the lessons of its own recent history. I still recall the “bugging out of Vietnam” and the human and refugee misery that followed.
The oil is not flowing and in fact it is apparently having to import oil. The situation there reminds me of the fornmer Yugolslavia after the death of Tito. You might want to recall what happened there. I still recall the ethnic cleansing and the many m,assacres reported. How often do we read reports of many bodies found dumped in rivers and other areas with bullet wounds to the head etc.
The entry into the war was based on falsity ie the exictence of WMD’s. This makes the execrise in my view to be flawed from the outset and if the US is again to be humiltated on a foreign battlefield then it has only itself to blame. They will leave Iraq in the middle of a civil war and ultimately a fundamentalist Muslim client state of Iran which will probably export not oil but terror.
Peter,
I’m not naive as you might think. I`ve have actually fought in a war and know better than others that nothing is perfect, plans change and mistakes happen. I was a part of Vietnamizaton of that war and true, the US deserted the Viets, but only after years of their press reporting almost verbatim, the propaganda of the communists.
The poeples resolve softened and politicians being politicians folded.
If the Iraq war has any similarities to Vietnam it this fact alone. If the US generally are condemned to make mistakes because they forget their own history then the press are as guilty.
Not all been killed by Insurgents alone and many have also been killed by coalition forces.
So? It’s war Peter. This goulish fascination of the anti-war mob with every civilian casualty only exists to embarrass the US. Happens all the time because as much as you might like to believe that all bomb, missile and weapon targeting is automatic and perfect it isn’t because the operators are human. When a man is under fire he sometimes makes mistakes, mainly because he is frightened and sometimes for the same reason, he lashes out.
My point is, and I know it as a fact; The coalition forces do not target civilians as a matter of policy whereas the terrorists do.
WMDs. Ah yes. You might like to read this piece, an interview of a guy who was there. Not for him an opinioned based on reading reports and not being able to sort the wheat from the chaff but his own recollections. I doubt if you will accept anything he says but you must be prepared to accept that there are different ways of viwing the same subject. So there were no WMDs apparent when the coalition had time to look for them. So what…they had been moved.
Civil War…hmmm. The Sunnis have always scuffled with the Baath Party…with the Kurds….with anyone. What you are seeing is the result of every tin pot leader n the area panicking at the thought of a democracy in the middle of the area. No wonder the Jordanian, Iranians et al are sending over reinforcements, munitions and other support. The last thing the Mullahs in the area want is people power. They have, after all, held the power since the 7th century.
Peter, I’m obviously more positive than you about the eventual outcome in the Middle East most probably because I don’t base every opinion on the false premise that the US are evil, incompetant, just out to protect the oil flow, or Bush did it as a payback for his Daddy etc.
I think the US have a plan that involves setting up a democracy in the Middle East and I for one, agree with it. If the implimentation is sometimes less than perfect or some squaddy kills the wrong bad guy then I put that down to the problems associated with a lot of young men trying to do their best but sometimes stuffing up.
It happens.
At least the Coalition have a plan to impede terrorism. Your thoughts might be better employed coming up with an alternative plan if you think their plan is bad.
What would you do Peter, if your country had just suffered the WTC obscenity?
Torture. I have posted previously on Abu Ghraib You might like to read if you haven’t already. It should wind you up but consider it is written from my personal experience…not my reading selective text of some Journo who has no experience…just an agenda.
Dear kev,
Thank you for your reply.
I do know a little about “vietnamisation” as my father was a member of the AATTV in 1 corps during some of his tour in Vietnam. He was also an original member of 3 RAR (formerly 67 Battallion) in BCOF in Japan and later in Korea. he was at Kapyong etc
I am not a veteran myself having served as a lowly private in the Queensland University regiment.
Dad did tell stories of how the yanks had no respect for the Koreans and the vietnamese ie the people and not only the enemy. He also says that the yanks did bug out of vietnam leaving half trained troops to try and prop a patently corrupt government. One whiff of “bad breath” and they were gone when the NVA decided to move in 1974 and 5.
You might remember the vists to Australia by Ky and his wife. I was only a young lad at the time and even then could recall stories of Paris apartments and money hidden away in Geneva and totally corrupt government. is the sasme happening in Iraq. Some say it is.
I do know how to recognise a stuff up when iIsee one. Iraq is another case of “war being an extension of politics”. Was it Clausewitz who said similar words.
All wars are commenced by an act of political will. Your battalion was sent to Vietnam beacsue Menzies, and later Holt thought that it was a good idea to stop the spread of communism throughout South East Asia. The North Vietnamese won the war and did communism speard to Thailand, Burma, etc No!
The idea of going to war was not cooked up by the Chief of the General Staff who over a few beers at a pissy BBQ with a couple of mates. It does not work like that in our system of geovernment. Bush etc had their political reasons to go to war eg speard of WMD’s and Teror. there has never been any credible evdience of the exisrtence of WMD’s and terror being exprted from Iraq pore Saddam. I look at photos of Langley Virginia and the Pentagon and think, Chruist how did they get it so wrong with all their money and their resoruces.It is amazing and quite a natural human trait that if you tell yourself something long enough you tend to believe it even in the face of evidence to the contrary. Did Cheney, Bush and the others con themselves or was it some ideological ‘idee fixe” that they had.
You might want to think about the reasons that the yanks got into Vietnam in the first place and the actual incident that was used to trigger off the effort. It was I recall called the “Gulf of Tonkin Incident” which now in hidnsight did not ocurr and was a lot of bullshit. Sounds familar to the WMD and terror rubbish that they peddled.
I have a theory that the main Iraqi informant (if I can call him that) was a guy called Chalabi who was the white knight and brown haired boy that Cheney and Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz paraded out as the person who through his contacts was supplying the “good oil” to the Yanks about Saddam and his WMD’s. It turns out that he may have been in the clutches of the iranians and that the yanks may have sold the dump. Why would not the iranians want to peddle this stuff and get the yanks to get rid of the menace on their border. They lost hundreds of thoiusands of men in the Iranian Iraqi war. Who did the yanks supply weapons to then and who was their “best man” in the Middle East at that time. Yes; good old Saddam. It was the case of “My enemies enemy is my friend”. I recall Truman talking about Papa Doc Duvalier of Haiti. Most would consider that he was evil bastard. When asked whey they had gone into bed with the US he said ” I know that he is a son of a bitch but he our son of a bitch”.
It is also interesting to see that Chalabi was dumped by the yanks; perhaps they realized that they ahd been duped by him and his Iranian friends. Some food for thought Kev.
I am pessimistic about the prospects of imposing a sophisticated form of government on the Iraqi people. It took the people of the UK over a thousand years to arrive at a parliamenary democracy. How do you expect to realistically impoose that on people to whom such a form of government is completely alien.
Some food for thought Kev.
Peter reminds me of the time listening to Australians bitching about aboriginals at the pub and when I told that I’m South African it turned to how racist the county was.
Dear Gary,
I don’t get the point of the response.
A constructive well argued response might be nore appropriate than an “ad hominen” attack.
Over to you gary.
When you say something worth “A constructive well argued response” you’ll get it, not before.
Dear gary,
Still waiting, waiting, waiting.
It will probably be as long as it takes the US to find the WMD’s and where they were “taken” and as long as it takes to find the connection between Iraq and Bin Laden.
Dear Gry,
Still waiting for the well argued response.
I might expect an apologia for the old regime in Sud Afrika.
Kev,
You might want to help him out.
Second course of food for thought.
The South Vietnamese actually put up a pretty good fight but Congress had stopped funding and without air or naval support they were doomed. The communists on the other hand had ample support from her communists big brothers. And lets not be coy; ‘when the NVA decided to move’ was actually an invasion.
Yes, the Yanks did bug out. After years of successful propaganda spearheaded by the Communists and carried faithfully by the western press, they lost the will to fight. Politicians folded against an onslaught of media-fuelled public antipathy. It wasn’t a noble part of their history.
Did your Dad also say the Australians had little respect for the Vietnamese as well? But not respecting the South Vietnamese is a far cry from the unthinkable alternative.
Patently corrupt government paled into insignificance when compared with the patently murderous government that followed the invasion.
I have no reservations about Ky and his wife. I only comment that they were still a better alternative to communism. With a democratic base, no mater how corrupt or inept, the Vietnamese could have progressed, but with the North in command there was simply no chance. The Vietnamese ‘Lockdown’ condemned the South to be dragged down to the North’s idea of culture for 30 odd years. I went back last year and witnessed all of this and also noted there is now hope for the poor Viets. The unstoppable advance of the a western style economy is now on the march forward aided and abetted by the South Vietnamese.
ALl war is an extension of politics and/or faled diplomacy.
Yes it did. I was in Thailand in 1974 trying still trying to stem the flow and I note you didn’t mention Laos or Cambodia.
Yeah we know about the Gulf of Tonkin but I think you will find it was more a mistake than a charade. I have fired at shadows myself and can well imagine how the guys on the Maddox thought they were under fire considering that two days earlier they were attacked.
I don’t think this carries much weight. Things change and so do people. What might have been relevant once is not relevant now. History is peppered with similar examples; as rogue countries change from benign to outright dangerous then so must our responses.
WMDs
There was plenty of evidence about WMD existance and none that Saddam had destroyed them as he was bound to under UN instructions. In my initial repsonse to you I provided link to an alternative take on WMDs and whereas you may question it you cannot ignore it as you have.
True, but now the book has been written it needn’t take another thousand years.
I don’t mind debating this but could we do in shorter bursts?
Dear Kev,
It is not only the “left wing press” that resorts to propaganda. John Howard and the IR ads paid for by our money ie yours and mine are a good example. Propaganda is in the eye of the beholder.
If the US decided to pull out of Vietnam it ws because the “people” had decided that it was not worth the loss and financial cost. The people spoke and in a democracy their views are the ones that are supposed to count not the views of LBJ, McNamara et al. This is the fundamental right in a democratic system.
Incidentally, McNamara who was Secretary of Defense (US spelling) now is of the view that it was a huge mistake to get involved in Vietnam. I suppose the death of 58,000 dead GI’s and 250,000 wounded play on his conscience.
WMD’s
It is amazing the link that you mention is a very recent reference . I have read it. The timing of the response and the “coming out” might have something to do with the flak that Bush etc are getting into over the allegations now only recently raised that there may have been falsifying of the evidence by the Pentagon being the reason to go to war. The US sent the survey team there and scoured the country and did not come up with anything. Do you think that Saddam may have been playing a game of bluff. It happens in card playing.
I laugh when Cheney goes on about patiotism. John Murtha (ex USMC) points out that this same “partiot” deferred from the draft on 5 ocassions. I think that Rumsfeld may have deferred a similar number of times. I think that Bush deferred at least three times and then joined the Air National Guard. I suppose a lot of Aussies were in the same boat joining the CMF and that way dodging the ballot. Murtha apparently has many contacts in the military and when he made the utterance it was beleived that this was a symptom of great dissatisfaction in the US military.
I suppose those who have “not seen the elephant” should think carefully about committing the sons of the poor, blacks and Hispanics etc to die for their country.
The person I respect most in the first administration was Powell. He was not one to rush into a war even though he was embarasssed with the presentation to the UN which turned out later to be crap. It seems to me that the voice of sanity and sensibility seems to be found in the utterances of veterans rather than the draft dodging neo cons who think that now that the US is the dominant world power that it can do what it likes.
It sickens me that Howard grovel to Bush. We can be a good ally to the US and still say “no” from time to time. Saying yes is not the sign of being a friend. Our Kiwi friends show that they can stand up for themselves even with the fear of retribution from the US. I never thought that I would be able to agree with the Kiwi’s.
I don’t know whether you read it or no; there is reporting from Col. T Collins formerly CO of the Royal Irish regigment who now considers that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake. He might know a thing or two about what is happening there.
It was sad to see the Iraqi leadership brawling at the Arab League meeting in Cairo. Is this a sign of things to come when the US leaves. Is civil war inevitable with the shia coming out on top and then exacting revenge against the Kurds and the Sunni.
Why we in the west ie the US want to intervene in the affairs of other countries. One minute you are an ally of the US and the next you are on the outer. Recall Noriega of Panama and now Saddam. I supposed Chavez of Venuezala will be the next one to be toppled because he stands up to the US.
I am not an apologist for communism or terror.
I respect your views Kev and the fact that you have served this country even though I don’t agree that Vietnam was a worthwhile cause. The fact that I disagree about the acsue does not mean that I denigrate the service put in by the likes of you, my father and may others.
I have debates with my father from time to time about these issues and I respect his views and his service to this country. I can still respect him and still disagree with the handling of the Vietnam war.
I hope Kev that all the Aussie troops come back safely and if we are alive in 20 years time that the Iraq war does not turn out to be a disaster for the US and the west.
The more that I hear and see and the shrillness of the resposne from Bush and Cheney leave me shuddering.
Dear Kev,
Do you have strong views on draft dodgers?
What about Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.
Do you have any comment on their motives for dodging Vietnam?
Not much…Cheney was at Uni, Bush was in the reserves but didn’t go, Rumsfeld was too old and a congessman in 1962 and Wolfowitz was at Uni…big deal that the Left bring out all the time.
True they didn’t serve but they didn’t serve for the enemy either.
Meanwhile Kerry, the darling of the left did serve(Do you know Kerry was a decorated Vietnam Vet? Everyone on the planet does)
Kerry actually served three times in Vietnam. Twice for the US and once for the Communists.
What is your opinion on treason.
Dear kev,
Thanks for the info. about Cheney.
Five deferments; it must have been the longest Arts degree that anyone has completed. I recall that he did higher degree courses and that he had the mutiple deferments because at the time he had “… other priorities.”
Rumsfeld: Too old to serve! He was born on the 9th of July, 1932. My father was born on 25/04/27 and served with the AATTV in Vietnam in his 40’s. He wasn’t too old to get a MID to add to the BEM from Korea.
A lot of the team members were in their 40’s and veterans of Korea eg Chinn DCM, Opie DCM, Bandy and Simpson VC.
Do I have to go on. Too old; more likely too gutless.
Dear Kev,
Still waiting for your arguments in defence of the Draft dodgers?
Peter refer to #12
Rumsfeld: Too old to serve! He was born on the 9th of July, 1932. My father was born on 25/04/27 and served with the AATTV in Vietnam in his 40’s. He wasn’t too old to get a MID to add to the BEM from Korea.
A lot of the team members were in their 40’s and veterans of Korea eg Chinn DCM, Opie DCM, Bandy and Simpson VC.
Poor analogy Peter. I too know the peope of whom you speak and most probably know your father (Surname starts with “D”?) but they were professional soldiers and your initial point was about 20 year old draft dodgers.
Peoples lives takes different routes and I have no problem with people who where in the age bracket but didn’t serve in Vietnam. There were millions who didn’t serve but the left just pick on a few because it suits their agenda to put down on people of different political ideologies. How many from the left answered the bugle call?
I do have some issues with those who were called and didn’t answer…went to Canada…burnt their draft card etc but on the whole I’m glad they didn’t serve…they would have lowered the standards of the Regiment and put the lives of reasonable men at risk.
Why we in the west ie the US want to intervene in the affairs of other countries.
Many reasons…the despots and mad mullahs murder our woman and kids…they murder their own woman and kids…their people are downtrod and their woman treated like dirt….they want to impose their society with it’s weird laws on the whole world..
They will not change…they will not accept civilization..they will fight to stay in the 7th century and keep their people ignorant.
It is too much of a risk to let them go on and on. I have long argued on these pages that education is the key but those in power will not allow any maths, language or science into their mainstream schools. An enforced democracy will enable the citizens and give them a chance. The shit fight in Iraq has less to do with what the MSM report and more to do with the clerics/mad mullahs etc not wanting to lose power.
But they will…education will see to that and as much as it’s not reported or believed by the left when it is, Iraq is turning to democracy and the citizen’s lives will expand.
Dear Kev,
Thanks for responding about the above debate.
I don’t know whether you know my father or not. I have not gleaned anything about his service except through my own research. I am an amateur history buff. He might not have seen much active service and what he did may have been very insignificant. He has contributed in many other ways.
He is probably like many you know very taciturn and reserved. Never any big noting from his side of the table. Perhaps he had nothing to big note about. We all think that our fathers are heroes ie thsoe that get on with them.
I do know that for all of his failings which he now freely admits he raised 6 law abiding (so far) children is still married to wife number one. I cannot say that I have followed his example.
He has similar views I think to yours about many issues though difficult to flush out. He is a product of his generation and the hard times as a boy in the country on a farm pre-war durng the depression.
I was reading an interesting short story about Paris. This will probably set you off on an rage against the “difficult” French. Anyway, the article was written by an Amercian Paratrooper who was dropped during the D- Day landings. He recalls the hospitality of the French peasants in Normandy and the cheese , bread, Calvados etc that they lavished on him. He was badly wounded about three days later and did not return to service until later in the war when they were dropped onto German soil. This is not the point of the story however.
He says that after the war that he would go to reunuions etc and when drunk at dinners he strip off his shirt and show the three bullett wounds in his chest. He was a lucky man to survive.
He says that as he grew older and had a family he realized that the real unrecognised heroes in this life are those who do their duty to their family and go to work, pay their taxes and raise families and contribute to their country. They do this year in and year out.
I can’t recall the exact words but he said that the heroes are ” those that walk through the arids plains of life” doing their duty to their families etc. These are the words that I recall. I stand to be corrected by anyone else who has a better recollection of the article.
It is something to think about when you are sitting at a bus stop or train station watching people head off to work and doing their duty to their employer, family and coming home each night having done a decent day’s work. I am not knocking those who are unemployed having myself experienced this after finishing my studies and trying to break into a profession in the early 1980’s. At the time I did not through youthful selfishness realise the assistance financial and otherwise that Mum and Dad sacrificed for me and ny siblings. No fancy overseas holdiays for them or dinners in restaurants and designer clothes.
The point of what I am saying is that I have respect for these people but little for those who say one thing and do otherwise. This is why I have a set against Rumsfeld, Bush etc.
When duty called they took the easy option.
Incidentally the anti-social personality traits of Cheney is further revealed after some cursory research on the internet. It reveals that when he was a young man (probably draft age) he was done not for one drink driving offence but two. Yes he was a young man at the time and should be allowed to make mistakes. We all have.
That behavior combined with what I call “draft dodging” does not make for a good personality profile. if there are any amateur “shrinks” out there then I owuld like to hear about your analysis. he has probably overcompensated now as a result of the attacks over the years on him.
Am I entitled to hold these seditious views. Yes I am because this is a free country where unfortunately if the new laws are passed then views expressed like these if said about our own leaders might charge me give me a stretch in the bastille.
There is a rule in nature that for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction. The problem in politics is that the rule of nature is twisted and exaggerated.
There is always an overreaction to a threat and in my view this is borne out in some of the silly and dangerous provisions in the Anti-terror legislation.
Inciting is differenet to satire and criticism. if the law is passed then the ‘thought police ” will be out looking for the likes of me and a lot of others who dare to criticise and analyse and those who attempt to be the devils advocate.
Will Kerry O’Brien, Jenny Brockie, Tony Jones, Philip Adams etc be charged with treason or sedition and jailed and will only those like Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones be free to peddle their views. You and many might think that this would be a good thing. I hope that deep down Kev that you would not like a one sided view of the world be the only one that we hear on the media and read in the press. It reminds me of Nazi Germany, Communist Russia etc
It will in my view be a dangerous time for democracy and free speech in this country.