Prisoners fair game
In the mid 60s I was a young soldier posted to the Intelligence Centre at Woodside South Australia. During the course of my time there I was detailed as staff on what was then called a Code of Conduct course. Maybe it still is, I don?t know. Young officers and NCOs would do the course to prepare them for war service so, if captured, they were at least aware of the interrogation methods of the enemy.
They would volunteer and arrive at the Intelligence Centre all ready for a week in the classroom studying Communists and other terrorist organizations.
That?s not what happened. They were put in a truck and were told they were going for a trip to look over the camp. A mile up the track the truck was ambushed, the students were captured in a very realistic and frightening manner (read shots fired, explosions, rough manhandling and rifle butts in the ribs) and they were bundled off to a camp we had built in the hills.
The role of the staff was to break these officers and NCOs within four days.
They were interrogated, forced to sleep in cells 1.5 m by 1.5 m that were designed NOT to give them a good night sleep. To small to lie down in, to low to sit up comfortably and the floor was large grade blue metal stone that neither encouraged sleeping nor sitting up.
The temperatures at Woodside in June are in single figures Celsius.
They were subject to sleep deprivation, hosed with high pressure hoses at random times like 02.30 and subject to sense disruption. The cells were blacked out so day or night was undistinguishable, and they were hooded when out of their cages, propaganda was blasted over loudspeakers at an unsafe level and they were manhandled to the point of bruising. They were stripped naked, hosed in cold temperatures and humiliated by staff.
They were subjected to trails by Kangaroo Court, found guilty and given a death sentence. One guilty man was taken outside and a shot rang out.
One of the students still inside the room feinted.
After four days they were totally disorientated and were on the verge of believing what was happening to them was real, even though they knew they were on a course.
Check out a man after 48 sleep deprivation ? he is functioning on the edge and after 72 hours the brain is loosing coordination.
Then you question him and maybe the answers save lives.
They volunteered. That?s what we do, us professionals. We are often harder on ourselves than on the enemy. We have to understand what it takes to get information out of a man that may, and often does, save lives. And we have to know how to withstand interrogation.
If you have been brought up on WW2 movies with clever interrogators outsmarting the German pilot and learning his secrets just by clever script writing then forget it. It didn?t happen that way and it still doesn?t.
This is not a profession for wimps. This is soldiering. We have to be this hard to protect our citizens against terrorism and sometimes, against themselves.
So what the hell is going on in Abu Ghraib? Nothing untoward has been stated so far. Taking a camera into the centre and snapping happy shots with sexual connotations was pretty stupid but that?s about it.
You see, the end does justify the means. Outside of murder or permanent damage; sense and sleep deprivation, some ego destroying humiliation and just a little bit of biff is OK while it saves lives. If you don?t like it – if its to much for your sensitive liberal upbringing then don?t read about it. just let us get on with trying to save your over protected indulgent self. I don?t mind if you have led a protected life and think these things that happen in war are so? well ..so terrible. Just let the soldiers do what they have to do.
You think Abu Ghraib is all about human rights?
You?re wrong.
Abu Ghraib is all about an attack on Bush and Howard. The suffering of the poor dears in prison is of no import to the left. Don?t kid yourself that they feel for them. They only care about the damage it can do the US.
And while we?re on the subject, why is it that the International Rules of War only apply to us Westerners?
If we apply these so called rules to war then we are condemned to fail. The media demand the US behave like Amnesty International undergrads and don?t even talk of WTC or the USS Cole or a dozen other obscenities. The Terrorists can blow up our woman and kids but we can?t soften up Iraqi thugs for interrogation to try and prevent it happening again. The Taliban decapitate woman for adultery and we can?t lock up Hicks, a Taliban soldier, for volunteering to kill Coalition forces. He could have been in a position to kill an Australian and although he was most probably not professional enough to succeed, he would have tried.
The left argue for a set of conditions and rules that flies in the face of every thing that happens in war. They demand the military be nice and humane to the Iraqi thug while the young soldier guarding him has just came back on watch after viewing Nick Berg?s 30 seconds of fame. Read him a bedside story, Sergeant, and tuck him in.
There were no rights in 1944 and Allied and Axis troops were shot dead on sight over the first few days of the invasion ? armed or not ,and I don?t blame them. It was that attitude that gave us the freedoms we have today ? the ones we are fighting for.
It sure as hell wasn?t anything that a Human Rights lawyer said or did.
As indicated earlier I come from a harder world. While others of my generation were getting high on weed and giggling over Marx, quoting Mao Tse Dung, and having fun supporting the enemy at Moratoriums I was picking up the pieces of their insanity and listening to the headman of a village weep over his wife and daughter raped, sliced and diced on the orders of a Marx/Ho Chi Minh inspired and Western Press supported political commissar.
Myself, I would give serious consideration to free-falling Osama Bin Laden from an aircraft at a height roughly equivalent to that distance people fell from the upper floors of the WTC. I would have the DZ fenced and populated by pigs and I would video the whole fall and the aftermath and offer the tape to AL Jazira.
Transmit this, you bastards!
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Love your work. Outstanding for it’s complete lack of spin and nuance!!
Well said.
I know several men who were POW’s of the Japanese…..ask them about the humane treatment they received.
All too true Kev. I had a cousin serve in Vietnam and he was involved in some things that would have had Latham and Rudd in a poll driven flap.
If the detractors are going to invoke the Geneva convention guidlines then have the descency to apply them to both sides. Seeing fallen US soldies having their bodies mutilated at the hands of Iraqi men and boys does little to restore faith in Iraqi civillians. This included beheading them and disembowelling them and all in full view of an Al-Jazera cameraman. The stills posted on the Al-Jazera website months ago were sickening. I wished i had of saved them so all the nancy’s complaining about some humiliation would have something to put it in perspective.
The taking of hostages and executing them, most civillian workers, in front of a camera for political gain is abhorent to me. They do this to rouse the interests of the likes of Latham, Amnesty and any other scumbag detractor. Where’s the yelps for Human rights for those poor bastards ???
The prisoners in Abu-Ghraib that were supposedly “mal-treated” are High Value Prisoners and from memory the Geneva conventions rules of prisoner treatment don’t always extend to them and for very good reason.
Personally i couldn’t give a flying fuck if they burnt these murderous filth alive, their sins are much worse and making them tea and scones won’t extract information that could potentially save thousands of lives.
I’ts all too easy for the gutless scum who sit in judgement knowing they’ll never have the spine to serve tea let alone their country but are full of ideas on the art of warfare. I’d like to see the likes of John Falkner, Chris Evans, Mark Latham and Bob Brown in the same environment. Imagine the shit stains. How would they act if they just saw one of their own butchered and then dragged behind a car til there was fuckall left but a lump of meat. Would they be as compassionate towards the pile of shit that committed the act, I fucking doubt it???
Leave the coalltion troops alone, they are heroes to a man and woman.
My old man was involved in running same in Qld in the ’70s.
Did you watch Insight on SBS last night? If you gave those dickheads a run-down of what was involved they would have had a collective fit.
Being caring and sharing is not uselful if you are in the field and are captured by bastards who don’t give a fucking rats arse about the Geneva Conventions, and you cough the location and strength of your unit, and they wind up dead.
These limp-dick public-fund siphons live on a different planet to the rest of us.
This is what we have been discussing at work. It happens to us, why should the fucking enemy get off lighter? Obviously there was a goon in that prison who loved his job, but that still doesn’t belie the fact that their role was effective.
“Where are the guns?” and “Who is running this? and “Where is your leader?
These are questions, if answered, would save Coalition forces further deaths/injuries. If the answers need to be beaten out, then I certainly couldn’t give a rat’s arse about Muslim propiety or cultural differences. In fact, I’d encourage using their views, traditions and opinions against them, as the US is clearly doing. Fuck ’em.
Well written Kev. I’m linking to this today.
Spot on, and that insight programme, waht a load of cobblers.
On WWII, grandfather was a p.o.w. a couple of times. On a route march, anyone who stumbled, fell, let their hands off their head was shot: no Geneva convention on that march. No Geneva C. either, when SS hunted escaped soldiers in Italy, he nearly was caught and he, along with Italian villagers woud have been shot on the spot if they had caught him. That, without considering internment under the Japs.
And hear, hear on ABu Graib. Despite the howls of outrage, the only thing the pics showed was as you said, a bit of sleep deprivation and roughing up in order to obtain info. That some soldiers have been tried over it is puzzling, since, no one has, as yet, pointed out what real torture was actually committed.
Excellent post Kev. By far the best post on Abu Graib I have read in the blogsphere.
Very well articulated – the perspective is good, and the reality and logic of the ‘ends and means’ argument is fine with me. Keep up your heartfelt, grounded and sensible work!
i think the “ayes” have it kev. You’ve done us all proud.
PB, I never saw the Insight show you mentioned but by all accounts probably a good thing i didn’t, might have hurled the tele over the back fence…
Can anyone tell me what exactly was abhorent about the treatment of the prisoners?? It seems that the treatment they received is only bad because as muslims they find it offensive !!!
I find Sawing a guys head off offensive too but that hardly rates a mention.
I think it’s time to completely isolate the media from battle and give them censored feed, as much as it galls me to say it. It seems that the media have thrived on telling us how barbaric “WE” are without mentioning the other sides actions at all.
My Great uncle, my grandads brother, spent more than 2 years in Changi,. That was prisoner abuse!!!
Just to add, that route march, it was winter and they trudged through snow – needless to say, the possibilty of stumbling, falling, loosing the hands and, therefore being shot en route, was high.
What a disgrace – you are a terrorist
A few facts –
at Abu Ghraib were not captured soldiers but civillians caught in random roundups
The information recieved by torture is totally unreliable. In this case, The information recieved by these prisoners has not stopped coalition soldiers being killed.
The forcing of captured males to perform fellatio on each other and to masturbate would be offensive to any culture.
To justify the actions by saying that the Japanese did the same is just plain stupid – it means that you are also justifying japanese atrocities.
The right wing love to abandon principle (such as international law) and rely on moral righteousness to justify the invasion – how can you then abondon morality to justify these atrcities
torture is humane.
two wrongs do make a right.
life is short, nasty, and brutish.
Kev,
I look at you, and I shake my head. You may have been courageous in the field – under gunfire – but you are a moral coward. As simple as that.
We don’t expect the same principles from the Al-Qaeda and Ba’athist mobs. We whinge about that, but do we abandon our principles? I may whinge, but I won’t abandon them. Sounds like you would, however. Being an Australian comes at a price.
There were no rights in 1944 and Allied and Axis troops were shot dead on sight over the first few days of the invasion ? armed or not ,and I don?t blame them. It was that attitude that gave us the freedoms we have today ? the ones we are fighting for.
A little factoid for you. The Germans in WWII were not into human rights. But they had a fair chance of being treated decently if they surrendered to the UK and Americans. They still fought hard, but not as much on the Eastern front. Remember the Soviets? They weren’t into human rights either. That’s why the fighting was so vicious.
And if you haven’t heard, they’re not just torturing soldiers, or even adults. According to Seymour Hersh, they’re torturing children in fron of their mothers. And how is that going to fight the war on terrorism?
You make me ashamed to be an Australian.
Regards,
Peter
A few facts. I never suggested the people in Abu Ghraib were soldiers – terrorists are not soldiers. In fact I agree with you – they were civilians but most probably civilian insurgents and in the circumstances that existed at the time one has to assume they are insurgents until proven otherwise.
Your information recieved by torture is unreliable is pointless. If the US had captured a terrorist before the WTC and extracted fingernails and details from him, would that be unreliable.
I can just see the CIA agent reporting; He says they are going to fly a plane into the WTC but because he said it after we tortured him we won’t do anything about it. This info is unreliable.
Yeah Right.
The Japanese connection mentioned in the comments suggests them as another example of the type of behaviour involved with Nick Bergin. That’s hardly justifying Japanese attrocities.
“they were civilians but most probably civilian insurgents and in the circumstances that existed at the time one has to assume they are insurgents until proven otherwise.”
Ah, guilty until proven innocent. Things really are different Down Unda.
I’m sure those 70-90% of innocent civilians at Abu Ghraib will understand.
abf.
Torture is never humane and two wrongs don’t make a right but that’s ignoring that there are degrees of wrong.
Prime time decapitation vesus happy snaps.
And yes, life was short, nasty and brutish for the WTC victims
I’ve said before this is not LA Law, it’s life.
As I understand it there were thousands of inmates and yet only a small number were targeted. Why. Most probably because the authorities thought they could contribute to their knowledge of the insurgents who were killing woman and kids.
Fair game, I reckon.
Kev, you are angry, when you, personally, have no cause to be angry. Your moral analysis is that of a moron, and a callous moron at that.
I am sorry to hear that the rule of law means nothing to you. Perhaps someone near and dear to you will take the opportunity to beat the living shit out of you. You desperately need it.
Peter
I’ll say it again…
…sense and sleep deprivation, some ego destroying humiliation and just a little bit of biff is OK while it saves lives.
So long as we stick in that general area then we are not abandoning any principles
Seymour Hersh! Jesus, if he tried a bit harder I’m sure he could prove that the soldiers were raping their Grandmothers. He’s there to make Bush and the US look bad. Quote him at me and I can only assume you are of the same opinion.
Kev – even if one descends to the moral imbecility of arguing that the end justifies the means, then you’re still wrong … unless you think that the only reason we are in Iraq is to simply to assert power over it.
If, however, you believe in the final remaining official justification for the war – the benefits of bringing democracy to the middle east, then what happened at Abu Ghraib has demonstrably set back that cause.
Mork, while your left-leaning media sources were trumpeting six-month-old pictures of Abu Ghraib for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, other things were happening in Iraq.
Amongst them were the discovery of actual WMD, banned rocket parts, equipment hidden from UN inspectors, and the revelation of further ties between Saddam and al-Qaeda.
This is an example of how the political agenda of the media distorts the issues and neglects context.
Eww, I think I just stepped in something nasty.
Torture such as electricution, pulling out fingernail or teeth, and other gratuitus stuff is not cool in my book. Plus the terrorists are liable to blurt out whatever they think you want to hear just to get you to stop. Sleep depravation, scaring the shit out of them, putting them through severe discomfort, and laughing at their weenies in order to break them down mentaly and emotionaly in order to get them to spill the beans is fine by me. I dont suggest we use this sort of torture for anyone else but terrorists. Torturing soemone to find out were they hid their stolen loot is not okay by me. Keep in mind that the gaol here is to save lives. Holding a barking German Shepard inches from a prisoners face is okay but letting go of the leash and letting the dog gnaw at the prisoner is going to far. Putting underwear on prisoners heads is fine but doing this in front of their families (which is bullshit anyway) is going to far. I am a tad concerned, however, that taking photos of what they were doing shows that they were enjoying it just a little too much
Evil – when did criticizing mendacity and incompetence make someone a left-winger?
“Actual WMD” – you mean the two shells? You can’t possibly take yourself seriously.
Mork, selectively criticising the right and excusing the left is what makes most of the media left-leaning.
And the two shells which have been found so far, capable of killing *only* 60,000 people, are just a fraction of the *known* stockpiles which have not been accounted for. Not finding most of the WMD is even worse than finding them, because we don’t know where they have gone.
And of course there are also the banned rocket parts, equipment hidden from UN inspectors, and the ties between Saddam and al-Qaeda to be considered.
Only two shells. Only four shells. Only a hundred shells. Whatever.
Mork is not really pretending to be an armaments expert, just satirising the right’s leaping upon the discovery of the shells as the retreat into a cosy cave of self-justification.
To that extent, he is quite right.
The right should never have posited WMD as the raison d’etre of going to war (if they ever did, of which I am not sure, although the left can quote chapter and verse).
Deposing Saddam was right. Abu Ghraib has set back the cause only in western leftist eyes.
Others – including those in the middle east who are used to far more robust tales, accept that terrible things – that relative to Abu Ghraib involve degradations far more chilling – happen in the cut and thrust of the dread that is war.
The lesson is not that Abu Ghraib should not happen again. It will. And it will be far worse when perpetrated by nations other than the US.
The lesson is that, when you know what is right, do not attempt to justify it to western left media.
They will hold you to ransom over it.
Evil is as evil does.
The right screwed up it let the left propagate the myth ‘WMD’ was the only reason for GW2.
Mork, selectively criticising the right and excusing the left is what makes most of the media left-leaning.
Evil – last time I looked, the Administration that prosecuted the war was not controlled by “the left”. Who, then, should the media be unselectively criticising in order not to be left wing?
Well mork, seing you are so vehemently against the war, then maybe you should lobby Bill clinton and his wife, or maybe Sandy Berger, Al Gore and Sen. elect John Kerry, it was their lobbying that lead to this war. Yes the previous democratic government of the US pushed for years to take this action and it is their baby.
Now considering that Mark “anal passage” Latham is a big mate and enjoys sucking his boyfriend Bill Sexaphone Clinton, then maybe he should be the one taking repsonsibility for the Iraq war.
No! Figured as much…
So just fuck off and bitch while other people lose their lives “again” to give a worthless sack of shit like you the opportunity to breath every day.
It’s all too easy to say how people should behave in the theatre of war when you aren’t there.
Oh and by the way. 2 shells that could have killed 60,000 would constitute WMD’s as would the prohibited long range missiles, as would the three truck loads of chemical weapons targeted for the Jordanians last month. Who was that again, oh that’s right, it was Al-Queada. BUT wait..There not in Iraq are they???
But for those who yell UN to validate their pathitic anti-american racist views just remember this. In February 2003, Richard Butler onthe ABC said, “Its not a matter of if the WMD’s exist, they do because i’ve seen them. It’s a matter of where are they and who’s going to use them?”
60000 people? LOL, the sarin shell blew up in a city of 5 million and a whopping TWO people needed medical attention. Nobody died.
As for Al-Qaeda, they sure as hell are in Iraq now. Coalition wankers can’t even keep the borders shut, too busy torturing kids and stealing.
BeerBelly
The compounds that make the sarin are contained in two capsules inside the shell. When the shell is fired the seperating membrane shatters from the inertia, the compounds mix, create sarin and when it strikes the target the case splits open and the sarin is released.
If the shell hasn’t been fired then no sarin. Otherwise how do you think you would ever motivate gunners to fire the shells if they contained sarin at the firing point.
LOL.
This little admission explains more about you than you might know, Kevin.
Niall. Too deep for this old Infantryman. More info please.
Trust you enjoyed your break. I’m off to the Territory for 6 weeks on Sunday and back thru the SImpson but don’t cheer – I will be laptop powered and will try out remote area posting.