Parliament passes terror laws
PARLIAMENT today handed the Federal Government sweeping new powers to crack down on home-grown terrorists after months of heated debate over civil liberties.
Naturally their was an outcry from the usual suspects
The Australian Greens, the Democrats and the Law Council today accused Labor of selling out civil rights by supporting the Bill, which will give unprecedented powers to police and spy agencies.The main points in the anti-terror laws: * CONTROL orders to monitor terrorism suspects; * PREVENTATIVE detention of suspects without charge for up to 14 days; * 16 to 18-YEAR-OLDS suspected of terrorism can be subject to control and detention orders; * SEVEN-YEAR jail terms for urging violence against the government or sections of the community; * TOUGHER police stop, search and seizure powers; * POLICE and ASIO powers to examine passenger and business information; * BROADER use of surveillance cameras at transport hubs; * OMBUDSMAN to oversee police use of new powers; * PARLIAMENT to receive reports on police powers; * TEN-YEAR expiry date and five-year review of laws; * LAW Reform Commission to review sedition laws in 2006. The Greens can worry about selling out civil rights, I’m just pleased that we are taking the terrorist matter seriously. The only people who have anything to worry about are those who would seek to harm our citizens and put simply, I don’t care about the rights of any such murdering thugs.
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Kev,
What about the rights of ordinary citizens.
I heard and saw Howard say on the TV that we had existing laws that covered the field then why the hell did we need these further laws.
Come now Peter. Since when has reason applied to these Libs….. Anyway, civial rights mean nothing to this party. Dont forget David Hicks. What is happening to this man is an insult to humanity. 5 years without charge yet the libs (apart from Dana Vale, god bless her) do nothing. Shame on them. And shame on you Kev for not coming to support this man. Yes he is an idiot, and yes, he must be chargerd BUT ONLY IF HE HAS DONE SOMETHING ILLEGAL. If he has broken no laws, how can he remain behind bars, regardless of how distasteful we may find his actions ???
PS Kev. Also waiting for your analysis on the Gerard affair. I’m looking forward to your explanation as to why it is entirely apprpriate for this man to be appointed to the RBA board.
Kev
I agree with you. If you are doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear.
Recollection have accounting for context (especially yours) peter and seen justifiably as unreliable. By the way when and where did you serve in the reserves?
What about your rights? Which ones are you afraid of losing?
This amorphous conglomerate of so-called rights espoused by critics of the new legislation, where are they? The Australian Constitution?
What rights of ordinary citizens are we talking about? What have we ordinary citizens actually given up? Anyone caught up in the Anti-terror laws are unlikely to be ordinary citizens. ASIO and/or the Feds will have been watching them and will have noted activities and or conversations that remove them from the “ordinary citizen” category and put them in the “dangerous citizen” category with loyalties to other than Australia and our laws.
Barry,
Girard’s appointment appears flawed but I reserve my opinion yet as so far it has been a feeding frenzy in the House. A lot of Australian taxpayers have disagreements with the ATO. I did..they took me to court for $10,000 and for some years you could say I was subject to an ATO investigation. When I finally went to court the amount swung the other way and they happily paid me.
Having said that I am not defending Costello I’m just saying that having a disagreement with the ATO is very common and is not necessarily a reason for being disbarred from public office. It might end up being seen by Australians as a stupid decision but as yet, not an illegal one. I’ll just wait and see.
It would appear Hicks went and signed up with the enemy of our country. He was in a position to kill Australians and therefore, in my opinion can and should be incarcerated so he cannot do any damage for the duration of the war.
If you sign up with the enemy you don’t have any civil rights as apply to other Australians. You can’t demand full rights from a society that you have sworn to bring down.
Dear Kev,
Re: Gerard
It is refreshing to see that Costello cannot be defended on the appointment. Even you would find it hard to defend the appointment.
The PM came to the same conclusion hence the stitch up job on the Insider’s programme last Sunday.
I think that Costello has been rolled and his judgement in the appointment was appalling.
Sure a lot of us have disputes with the ATO; but how many have the allegation made of blatant fraud and tax evasion. We are nottalking about a minor fudge in a tax return.
It is not the same as having a claim for a deduction disallowed say for a shirt or work boots or similar such matters. We are talkng of many millions of dollars.
The sad thing about the matter was that he had to sell the family company to Schnieder an overseas compnay to get out of trouble and pay back the banks and also the ATO. How much revenue has passed out of this country to overseas shareholders. Clipsal was a great Australian success story which like many others has been lost to overseas companies.
The man on all accounts and alleged by the ATO set up an artifical scheme to dud the ATO and ultimately you and me as taxpayers. We ordinary punters don’t have the opportunity to set up such schemes.
Re Hicks.
If the allegations were so clear against him why then is it nearly 5 years for them to take him to trial. No Habeas Corpus in Camp X ray and no judicial oversight of the kangaroo court system operating as military tribunals. I would not be surprised if the whole matter just folds like the charges against many others who have been released.
I would be the first to say that if he is guilty that he should be sentenced to a lengthy term of imprisonment.
Ultimately he is an Australian citizen who has been sold down the drain.I contrast this with the hot air from the PM, Downer etc over the self confessed drug trafficker Van Nguyen. This man admitted his guilt.
If Hicks is guilty then try him and not bugger around like they have. Let the
evidence be tested in a real court and not a Kangaroo Court where hearsay and confessions extracted under “rendition” can be admitted and not challenged.
Interesting too Kev to see that Rice is in Europe still trying to covering up blatant absues of person’s rights namely the process of using hidden bases to “render” “prisoners”. Indeed even kidnapping of citizen’s of other countries.
I see that the German citizen of Arabic origin has commenced legal proceedings after having beeing kidnapped by CIA ( or other covert agencies) and rendered to Afghanistan. By all accounts and conceded by the US that it was a sad mistake. What would you say if this had happened by mistake to an Australian Citizen.
What sort of message are they giving to the world when they carry on like this.
Next it will be sanctioned assasinations and behavior just as heinous as the terrorists. This is probably happening now. What happend to the family of someone who is killed by mistake.
Peter – You are so spot on. These people forget that the US has acknowledged that Hicks had never fired on one US soldier. Perhaps I might repeat that if I may. HICKs HAS NEVER FIRED ON ONE US SOLDIER. The man is an idoit and got caught fighting for the wrong side, but is this treatment fair ? Come now Kev. It is a measure of a society not how it treats the strong but how defends the weak. Hicks has been thrown to the wolves. Imagine the uproar if the Tailban had an Australian citizen locked away for 5 years. Would Kev and his hero Andrew Bolt be so silent ???
I hope your not in a profession that relies on more then ‘hear say’ testimony. Because you’ll be a dismal failure at it peter.
Peter, do you really think that Costello would have appointed him if he had known the extent of his tax situation?
I have trouble believing that Costello is so lacking in political experience to have known his appointee faced possible criminal tax evasion charges, but not realised the problems appointing him would create.
Barry, So what if he didn’t fire at a US Soldier? He went over there to train, then returned to fight against Australian forces and our allies. It doesn’t matter if he was caught in battle or caught napping. Is the treatment fair? Well normally POW’s are released at the end of a war, and last I heard the Taliban were still fighting.
Hick meets the criteria of POW so Habeas Corpus don’t apply. Personally I think he deserves the same justice that the Taliban gave.
These people forget that the US has acknowledged that Hicks had never fired on one US soldier. Perhaps I might repeat that if I may. HICKs HAS NEVER FIRED ON ONE US SOLDIER
Repeat it adnauseum Barry, that is not the issue. The ordnance soldier who supplied me with ammo most probably never fired at the enemy either but he is a fully paid up member of the veterans association.
You’re right that the measure of a society is how it treats it’s weak and poor or disadvantaged or whatever but Hicks didn’t fit into any of these categories. He was young and fit, had all the advantages of being an Australian and then chose to desert his homeland and fight for the enemy.
The issue is not 5 years it is how long the war lasts and we both know the Taliban don’t incarcerate their enemy, they slit their throats on day one….poor analogy.
Peter, you are understandably dependant on the judicial system. As much as the Taliban and it’s adherants aren’t entitled to it, The US are treating Hicks et al as PWs and I agree with them. I’m happy for him to be kept out of harms way until the War on Terror reaches some resolve. Others have been released from Guantonamo but I would suggest it is because the US no longer see them as a threat.
Rendition and all it’s associated word plays. I don’t care if the CIA use some torture to extract info that may save lives. I really don’t and I can assure you neither do many. There are things that sometimes must be done to protect society from those who would harm innocents or citizens. If the CIA now move these camps before the media get onto them or before some recalcitrant soldier/CIA agent sells his soul to the media to gain his/her 15 minutes of
fameinfamy then fine – do it with my blessing.Dave,
Even if Costello did not know about Gerard and his problems then he should have. he was missing in action.
The matters were before the Court and were reported widely. I suppose a contribution of over a million dollars to the Liberal Party may cause one to overlook minor matters such as alleagtions of tax evasion and fraud.
The finance Minister was Nick Minchin (incidentally from SA) and one would think that he may have mentioned Gerard’s problems to cabinet. We will never know becasue cabinet discussions are prohibited from disclosure. It may be that a leak from inside may do more damage to Costello for Howard’s benefit.
Overall Howard has a good week with Costello damaged probably irretrievably.
Gary,
I do work in a profession that in most cases (save for some minor exceptions) excludes the use of hearsay evidence. It most certainly excludes the use of confessions and evidence obtained under duress or through inducements and rightly so. Our common law system has arrived at the conclusion over many years that the use of such evidence is unreliable and is a cause of grave injustice to an accused.
I thought that the rule of law applied in the US. If you are going to throw out the rule of law then do it and not mouth weasel words about democracy and democratic values.
The sad thing is that this alleged war on terror is now used to torture and detain people without trial or due process. Kidnapping also. The US though not as far down the slide as the Taliban etc but if it continues then its credibility will be further damaged. How can they say that the ends justifies the means.
I see and hear Rice “tip toeing” through Europe denying the undeniable. It is refreshing to see that politicians from all jursdictions lying through their teeth. She is telling blatant lies to the European leaders and they know and she knows that they know it. It would be nice to see Powell and Armitage back in the saddle.
I am not an adherent to those values.
“I do work in a profession that in most cases (save for some minor exceptions) excludes the use of hearsay evidence.”
Then you should understand why your dismissed as a Looney with selective hearing.
At least you acknowledge Hicks to be a prisoner of war…. the US is calling him an unlawful combatant…. what a joke ! ! !
But to somehow suggest this bong smoker from the suburbs of Adelaide is a threat who needs to be locked away in Cuba is laughable if you guys weren’t so serious…. as to the Taliban slitting people’s throats…. hugh…. were you captured by the Tailiban..??? on what premise do you make these comments ?? And by agreeing he was part of the Taliban, you agree he was not part of Al-Qaeda ??? Thank god there is some brainpower on that one
gary,
You still don’t understand the law against hearsay and I won’t even bother trying to educate you as it is apparent that you are impervious to any learning.
You will if you try and understand the information that I am trying to impart be “still ignorant but much better informed.” Your ignorance does not surprise me but it does sadden me that you can be so obtuse.
The rules applicable by the military tribunals are light years away from the procedure and the evidentiary requirements reagrding the admissibility of evdience in criminal courts in the US and common law countries like Australia.
You need to understand that these courts do not admit evidence obtained under duress and torture. Kangaroo Courts do as they would not be able to obtain a conviction otherwise.
You can’t seem to grasp this fundamental point and it is no use me trying to educate an ignorant fool like you.
You might want to use the internet and educate yourself as to admissibility of evidence. Once you do that then you can contribute something meaningful and not dribble.
Should he have known, yes he should, because Gerard should have informed him.
Do the US have secret rendition camps in Europe? Well it kind of hard to prove that something doesn’t exist, especially to people who have already made up their minds that it does. But I have no problem if they do.
“to the Taliban slitting people’s throats…. hugh…. were you captured by the Tailiban..??? on what premise do you make these comments ??”
Aparantly Barry Bones knowlage of Taliban only goes a faras his nose. If I’m wrong then so is the BBS ABC and UN.
err “
informationopinion that I am trying to impart.”–peter
Dave,
Gerrard has alleged said that he did tell Costello that he had a “problem” with the ATO. I suppose Costello thought that it might have been dispute over his dry cleaning claims and deductions.
Incidentally,I heard on P.M. that an ATO official says that there was pressure from at least 5 Liberal members of parliament. I think he described it as “political interference”.
Can’t wait for the next intstallment.
The irony is that I like Costello more than ” the lying liitle rodent” as Senator George Brandis describes the PM. he denied calling him ” a lying little rodent”. Not a bad distinction from the barrister.
Can’t also wait for more on the AWB bribes of hundreds of million to Saddam. I wonder how many guns he bought with the money.
I bet the AWB claimed tax deductions for the payments as “commissions”.
Dave,
I am glad that you agree that the US can carry out torture illegally on the sovereign territory of other countries. I bet you would squeal if you heard that Bin Laden and his cohorts were doing the same on our territory.
I suppose the US can do anything it likes so that agroveller like you would kiss their bum and give them their blessing.
It really surprises me that these people who say Hicks deserves to be locked away without trial for 5 years can be so bitter and angry. You hate for the sake of hating…. so very sad. Its sad to think that people like this can live in such a wonderful democracy like Australia. To simply throw away human rights willy nilly is an insult to the ANZACs who went to war for all of us. Its not what my Grandfather went to fight the Germans for ! !
Barry, I trust your grandfather is no longer around otherwise he could tell you of what they did in their time – going by your emotive words you would be shocked at that as well. What do you think war is – a coutroom battle? I’m not bitter or angry about Hicks – totally apathetic to his self inflicted troubles is more like it.
You need to understand that these courts do not admit evidence obtained under duress and torture. Kangaroo Courts do as they would not be able to obtain a conviction otherwise.
I’m not to sure about that. I was in the Army for 25 years and was both subject to and later heard cases against soldiers. I, and my peers, went out of our way to ensure the soldier got a fair hearing and administered the law accordingly. What we didn’t have was a mob of lawyers fighting to get a soldier off the charge for reasons other that his guilt or otherwise.
You seem to have a hangup about torture. If torture is used it is not to extract confessions, it is extract information in such a timely manner as to save lives. Why is it that you have problem with this?
I know the following as been put before but I’ve never heard it answered
If ASIO had a captive,suspected he new of a plot to blow up Sydney Harbour bridge friday pm peak hour and they extracted the details from him using torture with only hours to spare; if this knowledge was used to save tens of thousands of lives would you still say the confession was illegally obtained and if you did do you really think anyone would care?
Peter, I think that describe their treatment as “torture” is a complete misuse of the term. I also can’t see that it makes any difference where they do it. Is it worse to make someone listen to Britney Spears in Hungary than in Guantanamo Bay?
Dave,
Your compariaon is laughable.
Why are you so flippant about the comparison between kidnapping and torture and rendition and listening to Britney Spears. You really are a sad human being.
No matter whhat you think of the enemy they are “human beings”. It might help if you tried to understand why they are prepared to kill themselves and educate our leaders why they hate the west so much. Do you think that rendition is any more civilised than what the Taliban etc espouse.
I thought that “rendering” was akin to what happens at an abattoir. I suppose the simile is not too far off the mark.
Kev,
I am glad to hear that you served for 25 years. I think that my old man served probably longer and saw a lot more active service than you.
Having a fairly safe billet down in Nui Dat pales in comparison to the fighting in Korea at the battle of the Apple Orchard, Salmon, The Doctor, the Broken Bridge, and Kapyong and in 1 Corps with the AATTV.
More Aussies were killed and wounded on the 24th of April, 1951 than probably the whole of the casualties in your battalion in their 12 month tour of Vietnam. So don’t carry on about how valiant you were.
Don’t carry on as if you won the war by yourself. I have no problem with the fact that you saw “active service” but don’t bullshit about comparing a hearing before the CO about an unauthorised discharge or being rude to an officer compares with being locked up for five years without trial. if a digger was locked up for five years it would be an outrage.
What the hell were you fighting for.
I thought that your service was to fight for values such as the rule of law and democratic values. Torture and rendition have no place in a civilised democratic society no matter who the enemy are.
If we descend to “their” values then we have lost the moral high ground. The means do not justify the end. We are dragged down to their level and we have lost the fight.
If I heard my father spouting the crap that I have heard; I would probably put him on his arse. I am proud of him but would not respect the same narrow minded crap from him.
I have served in this community for 25 years representing the down and out, the poor etc against dishonest cops, dishonest citizens without fear or favour.
Don’t give me “cant” about honest people have nothing to fear from the new laws.. I remember Qld under Joh and the number of honest people (citizens) who were verballed and jailed. They were innocent people who dared to speak out. Don’t you remember the Fitzgerald Inquiry and the revelations about corrupt police and the acquiescence of the government beacsue it suited their purposes to have a compliant police force. Having a contrary view in those days could land you in the Bastille.
Maybe I am being too tough on you Kev but I don’t think that I would have self respect unless I got this off my chest.
I too have served 25 years not in the firing line for one tour of duty; every day fighting for peoples rights not with an SLR rifle, WP, napalm, CS gas, etc but with words and the support of fearless counsel.
It saddens me to hear from veterans who have forgotten their oath of service.
So don’t carry on about how valiant you were…..Don’t carry on as if you won the war by yourself.
All this from The ordnance soldier who supplied me with ammo most probably never fired at the enemy either
You need to chill out a bit Peter and I’ll ask the questionone more time
“It might help if you tried to understand why they are prepared to kill themselves and educate our leaders why they hate the west so much.”
So you think blowing up tourist is ‘education!’. That’s the means justifying the end, little pete. Oh and the ‘means’ you’ll go to if your dad didn’t agree with you is a classic. I wonder how tough you are in person with some one closer to your age.
“Don’t carry on as if you won the war by yourself.”
You may get away with deliberately misrepresenting what people are saying and chasing ambulances for a living. But its only a source of amusement hear little little man.
A man woke up in a hospital bed and called for his doctor. He asked “Give it to me straight, doc. How long have I got?” The physician replied that he doubted that his patient would survive the night. The man then said “Call for my lawyer.”
When his lawyer arrived, the man asked for his physician to stand on one side of the bed, while the lawyer stood on the other. The man then laid back and closed his eyes.
When the man remained silent for several minutes, the lawyer asked what he had in mind.
The man replied “Jesus died with a thief on either side, and I thought I’d check out the same way.”
A local newspaper mistakenly printed an obituary for the town’s oldest practicing lawyer. The lawyer called them immediately and threatened to sue unless they printed a retraction.
The next day, the following notice appeared: “We regret that the report of Attorney Smith’s death was in error.”
>Do you think that rendition is any more civilised than what the Taliban etc espouse
Absolutely. Without a question of doubt. I’ve seen the inside of an abbatoir, and the way that stock for slaughter are treated there is far better than how Al-Zarqawi and his followers have treated several of the people they have captured.
Maybe I’m just a flippant, sad, bitter and angry “human being”, but I wouldn’t think of putting someone on their arse because I disagreed with their opinions, not even close family members.
And I wouldn’t think to declare myself arbiter of who is valiant enough and who isn’t.
Peter – You really hit the nail on the head with that last comment. I’m guessing Kev never left Puckapunyal
And you’d be wrong but so pathetically consistent,Barry Bones.
BB/Peter
So what you are both saying is that those servicemen/women who enlist during peaceful times or are in areas not directly involved in combat yet never the less supporting those who have or will are inferior individuals? Peter do not compare yourself to those who have fought for this country “I too have served 25 years not in the firing line for one tour of duty; every day fighting for peoples rights not with an SLR rifle, WP, napalm, CS gas, etc” all it does is belittle and denigrate their deeds.
“if a digger was locked up for five years it would be an outrage.”
What was longest legal incarceration of a POW in WW2?
`That’s the means justifying the end, little pete. Oh and the ‘means’ you’ll go to if your dad didn’t agree with you is a classic. I wonder how tough you are in person with some one closer to your age.’
An elderly chap, died a few years ago in his late 80’s. As well as having reitred as a senior exec. a number of years before, and continued in retirement training new managers on casual basis for the compnay, during his career he topped up his pay as an amatuer in the AFL and was an international belt holder in his boxing calsss, feather, .
A year before he died, from cancer -no, he had never smoked, one evening, while walking his dog, 5 heavy, very fit thugs in their twenties approached him from behind, and told him they were about to pulverise him. he turned around, he laid the first four with one blow each, he had a very straight arm unlike the southpaws so many oz boxers are. One had his cheek bone smashed, two had broken arms, the third a smamhed rib cage.
The 5th thug, cried, `No, not me, I wans’t in on it,no…’
Tom: ` You’re one of them, you’re in on it, I heard you ‘. Tom broke that thug’s arm as he flattened him to the footpath.
Now, to a lad who reckons he can floor even his old man who happened to be a chap who learnt the art of self defence, all one can say is, what’s the name of your hospital so some-one can send you get well roses.
Kev et al,
I have no wish to denigrate those who have served.
Just beacsue one has served on active service does not mean that you have the monopoly on wisdom and insight.
I am reassured that many servicmen and women who I have spoken to do not share your views.
I recall the conscription referendums in WW1 where the AIF and the majority of the Australian people knocked Hughes the ” dirty old digger” back twice when he tried to pass laws to send young men forcibly to fight. Incidentally unlike WW11 when japan entered the war Australia was not under any direct at that time.
I am sure that Kev etc would agree that forcing people to fight is not good for a country and the quality of its fighting forces. You might remember the US forces in Vietnam and their declining quality as the war dragged on and the casualties mounted. It was a prfoundly unpopular war at the end and the people were sick of it. I see parallels with Iraq.
The First AIF was a volunteer force; it would not countenance capital punishment for any offence whilst on active service overseas.
Some like Kev might suggest that it was a bad thing; I don’t agree. They were a superb fighting force nowithstanding the above.
I did not have the opportunity to serve such as Kev and others; not being born until after the Korean War Armistice, too young for Vietnam and too old for the other peace keeping operations etc.
If Australia was threatened I am sure Barry Bones, Gary and every man and women would fight for the common cause notwithstanding that they might hold diverse views and differ on their life outlook.
I hold the view that we all should be striving for a more tolerant and humane society and not surrender to paranoia and those that would want to remove democratic rights that the men of the First and second AIF and later the RAR etc fought to preserve.
I hear speeches from politicians etc on Anzac Day and other commemorations about how these men and women fought to preserve democratic ideals and not to surrender to hate and paranoia.
Some of the stuff that I hear and see on this blog and elsewhere indicate that some may have lost sight of what they fought for. They did not fight for repressive laws, trial withut charge or without jury, loss of habeas corpus, incarceration for years without trial, condoning of torture and then justify all the above because the “means justify the ends.”
Did those men and women fight to support rendition, torture, kidnapping of innocent citizens, sedition laws to restrict free speech all of which lend comfort to the terrorists. The terrorists are not a convential threat and the prospect of them toppling democractic governments.
Sure they may try and blow up a building and carry out a suicide attack; but they cannot mount a conventional war.
These terrorists don’t blow themselves up beacsue they feel like it. Their motives should be examined and understood so that they can be countered. They have an abiding hatred of the west and their view of the world has been formed because of their perception of the oppressive foreign policy principally of the the US.
Sure we have to protect our citizens but don’t as the cliche say “throw out the baby with the bath water.”
“Just because one has served on active service does not mean that you have the monopoly on wisdom and insight.”
Peter, Kev never makes that claim out side his speciality. Your problem is he can still physically defend himself against people like you who don’t like what hes says.
Have you heard of term “chickenhawk” Its a term used by many anti-GW2 people to describe Pro who haven’t served. What do you think of that?
Hicks is not a POW, he is an illegal combatant. He was captured in a warzone but he had no rank, he had no serial number and he went by a Nom de Guerre. It does not make an iota of difference whether or not he fired on a US soldier. The intent was there. He was part of a fighting force which is not recognised by the Geneva Convention as it does not differentiate between combatants and civilians and it has no standard recognisable command structure with which to negotiate or accept surrender terms.
He wasn’t on a friggin’ cycling holiday where he took a left turn at Albuquerque. He’s an anti-Semite and conspired to assist in the creation of an ultra-violent, oppressive, racist, misogynistic religious theocracy. All said and done, IMO, the Yanks should send him back to Afghanistan and let the Afghans deal with him.
Murph:
I Love your work mate, couldn’t have said it better.
Gary,
I really like the word “chicken hawk.” Gary feel free to use it as much as you like.
I see it commonly used to refer to “draft dodgers” like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and many of the pro Iraqi invasion supporters.
Please us it more often so that I can scale up the criticisms of the above.
They had the chance to serve and ducked it. It is nice to see that they are happy to start a war and see young men die. When they had the chance to face the music where we they seen; ducking the draft by doing the longest BA in US history in Cheney’s case. Gary do you want me to start on Bush and the others. I am quite happy to describe the antics of these “chicken hawks”. Perhaps you can call them “chicken heroes”. Perhaps I can call Bush “chicken wings” he having served in the Air National Guard in Texas. What a gunslinger he was.
I am happy Gary to ne lumped in with draft dodgers and chicken heroes.
Murph,
How as he an illegal combatant if he “fought” or enlisted with the Taliban?
There are many governments around the world with similar and oppressive forms of governments eg Saudi Arabia, Haiti and many others all of whom are supported by the US.
If I recall that the Taliban was the legitimate government of Afghanistan at the time. It was recognised by the US prior to 9/11.
Incidentally this was a government made up of many tribal leaders where were funded by the US and the CIA in their war against the Soviets. How the rotten worm turns.
Please explain further Murph etc
Peter
Please correct me if I am wrong but the US never recognised the Taliban.
The only ones to do that were Pakistan, UAE and I can’t remember who else.
Don,
Just because the US in your view did not recognise it does it then follow that it was an illegal regime? Who do you think armed them? Not the soviet except for captured weapons but good old “Uncle Sam”.
Over to you Don.
I suppose the US is the arbiter of all that is good and true. Why do you think that they recognized and praise Musharraf of Pakistan who they treated as an illegal regime before 9/11; Why, because it suits them,Don.
I look at their foreign policy and with some skepticism. The land of the free and home of the brave; not likely when old “chicken hawk” and Cheney is the president and vice P. respectively.
Dear Gary,
Still waiting to hear about the chicken wings,
what is he marinated in.
Probably dog shit.
You are the one that made the point in the first place that the US recognized them. I was just pointing out that was I believed incorrect.
Peter being recognized by only 3 countries does not make it a legal regime either.
Peter,
There is no way you can paint the Taliban as a legitimate regime. As for the US giving them arms – so what? It was during the cold war and anything that weakened the USSR was positive. Now things have changed – The USSR has gone and the Taliban needed putting down. Happens all the time – it’s a pointless arguement.
Dear Gary,
Still waiting for your defence of old chicken wings.
Incidentally he has accepted responsibility for the invasion of Iraq and the failed intelligence about the WMD’s.
Good for him peter, Now those responsible for kneecapping intelligence gathering on Iraq in 1998 should accepted responsibility.
The Taliban weren’t using US made weapons. Just like Iraq mostly Russian/ME and European.