Specialist Graner
I feel uneasy about Graner and his trial. Not to suggest he isn’t guilty of the crimes as charged. After all a jury has found him guilty but it just seems a bit surreal to me .
My first concern is the lack of rank on the man’s uniform. Living and operating at the bottom of the military food chain should prevent him taking unilateral actions as he appears to have done.
Where were his commanders when all of this was going on? What were the Sergeants, Lieutenants, Captains, Majors, Colonels and Star ranks doing while Graner was having his way with the prisoners?
My second concern is the length of sentence. With a good lawyer, a murderer can get less.
Ten years for being stupid seems a bit harsh to me. Western Armies, Australia’s included, dish out harder treatment to their own soldiers during training so forgive me if I think it’s all a bit much.
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I think the problem is that Graner is a little on the simple side. His joking with the media suggests he’s well and truly short a six pack.
Of course, the only one dumber than him is his lawyer – “Don’t cheerleaders make human pyramids all the time?” With an argument like that, it should be the lawyer who spends time in the slammer.
I still think it was a major problem in the chain of command. I cannot see a private soldier or even an NCO formulating the “attitude adjustment session” and then being able to execute it. Taking the photographs was just dopy. The whole thing is a little fishy…..it just does not mesh with SOP in any Western Army, to my knowledge.
I also take and support Kevs’ point that what happened in Abu Ghraib was a little thing in the total picture. It might have been better for the Septics to get what they could from the fuckers and then brass them up and say they were shot trying to escape. The troopies have more to worry about than the consequences of roughing up a couple of raghead terrorists.
Splat Guy:
Ye, he does appear stupid which was a part of my unease about the whole matter. I heard ABC Radio’s take on the matter where the reporter went on and on about the prosecution’s case and then covered the defence case by saying ‘ Oh and the defence raised some issues as well’ True!
I thought the guy was dead before the matter got to court/trial/tribunal/Court Martial.
Still, maybe Seymour Hersh will get another Purlitzer for his efforts in bringing his country into disrepute.
I think the word is “fall guy”, “patsy”, “sacrificial lamb” or any other euphemism for a poor unfortunate, dopy bastard who had to take the fall for others.
I don’t think he took the fall for others. What others? Where were they during the trial? If he had been ordered to do such things, somebody had to have given those orders. A senior NCO, a junior officer, someone in his chain of command. Of course, it may be that those same people have already been punished for failure to control their area, and the defense didn’t want them anywhere near the court.
Ten years is steep, but his fun and games for his girlfriend’s birthday “party” may have cost many lives.
With or without orders, the behaviour of Graner and his subordinates is inexcusable.
They deserve their dishonourable discharges and jail time.
They have brought the US military into the worst disrepute since My Lai, far over and above the seriousness of their offences. They have seriously damaged their country’s image.
There are obviously a number of serving and ex military who read this site, for you, a query:
Under the same circumstances as guards of these prisoners, would you have carried out the degrading actions that have been reported, or allowed your subordinates to do so?
Didn’t think so.
Swift and appropriate disciplinary action should be done and seen to be done.
PQ,
They deserve their dishonourable discharges and jail time.
I agree – but I question ten years for those on the bottom of the food chain. Graner should be given some time and told never to darken the military or US prison system doors again as in ‘You?re a fucking idiot – piss off!
I agree their behaviour is inexcusable but to mention My Lai in the same paragraph is over the top. Hundreds of people were murdered at My Lai; in Abu Ghraib some people were humiliated.
It’s a matter of degree.
I certainly would not have allowed any such treatment and I seriously doubt whether it could have happened under Australian Military rules/discipline but that’s by the by until I’m faced with a similar set of circumstances.
I certainly would have entertained the thought of using procedures that we in the military deem appropriate (as mentioned in my linked article) and even though the press would classify such moves as Torture; if it meant saving the lives of civilians and troops I would tell the press to piss off and take their cameras with them along with any cameras belonging to the troops.
Mike
I think ‘the others’ are yet to face trial, and I’m not sure as to whether people actually died as a result of Graner?s activities. I think it’s a case of human rights/humiliation degradation.
All,
It’s the sado-sexual connotations I find tacky – not the fact that they were humiliated and don’t think for one moment that they were all innocents. Some of them would have had knowledge as to where and how IEDs are produced and exploded.
If you question the methods, and they are decidedly questionable, then what methods would you suggest to enable Intelligence to try and save the lives of Iraqi women and kids and US military.
Someone has a legitimate task of extracting such info for the good of all (except the perpetrators) and I’m afraid that under the current expectations as set by of the media, the military can’t even deprive them of sleep or use any methods to mentally disorientate these people without having the new-age define word TORTURE thrown in their faces.
In short, I agree that what they did at Abu Ghraib was wrong and the people involved deserve some punishment and need to be removed from any position where they can repeat their stupidity but it?s not My Lai.
The bottom line in all of this, as Kevin intimates, is what were this mans superiors supposedly accountable for while said transgressions were taking place. There is a case to be made for the old saw of “just following orders”. No-one has seen fit to pursue the issue of just who gave what orders and why. That, to my mind, is the real question, as is why these people are not being corralled in the same manner as Mister Graner.
When I say people died, I mean coalition soldiers who ended up facing more resistance than might have been out there before. I remember how pissed I was that these idiots did such things when it first came out. It was never an issue of torture, but stupid acts by bored MPs.
The immediate first step after a court-martial per the UCMJ is an appelate review. My guess is that the sentence will be reduced. I’ve not heard anything of what happened to their chain of command, but Janice “I play a General” Karpinski went scott free.
Mike, I think you’re right…..the sentence will be reduced, and Graner will probably not serve too much jail time. A DD and forfeiture of pay and privileges probably along with a small dose of incarceration. I think the chain of command will ultimately have to answer some more questions. They should!!!! But don’t hold your breath.
Ten years is a lot, not the least because Graner and the other accused, especically Lynndie England, can never really have normal lives again. They will always be associated with the abuse at Abu Ghraib.
Don’t really know about military culture, but I think human nature is such that we can all behave in ways we usually wouldn’t in such circumstances.
Spot on Darlene.
Group bonding, peer group pressure, in cumstances where life and limb have less value than at home and all of this in a situation where the troops could well have believed that they were doing the right thing to expedite gaining info to save lives, all impacts on people being able to accept lower standards of behaviour.
I’ve seen men do terrible things in war that were totally unaceptable at home or in polite society but were accepted in situ.
Plus Graner obviously had the hots for Lynndie and was possibly trying to impress her in a very neathanderal way.