Under seige and loving it
As I anticipated, the Left attacked me for my post on Prisoners fair game – some with reason and beliefs but some exhibiting such vitriol that their comments say much more about them than me.
One says I make him ashamed to be Australian, accuses me of being a moral coward and signs off regards, Peter. Over at Surfdom he is much more pointed;
Kev – as an ex-servie, is probably courageous under gunfire. Alas, he’s also a bit of a moral coward. Because he considers the Iraqis so awful and terrible, he’s willing to drop the ethical bar clanging to the ground. A shame, but that’s life. (I just hope he never went above Corporal.)Hate to dissapoint you about the Corporal bit – I went a long way past but once I was a corporal and then I was making decisions that effected mens lives and, in fact, their chances of living. It puts a perspective on life that people whose sole source of knowledge is restricted to the written word will never see. Because he considers the Iraqis so awful and terrible… I don’t know where that line come from. Iraqi’s are OK, they’ve had a terrible time and I believe the thrust of the war will help them live better lives. So do they, actually. It’s the terrorists I hate, I have problems with terrorist of whatever nationality. And neither am I suggesting we drop any ethical bar , I’m suggesting there are people who are not aware of where the bar rested in the first place. I’m not suggesting excessive physical violence, murder or rape are acceptable. They are not. But the methods espoused in basic Interrogation are And now it’s plain lack of morals. Now that’s reading a lot into a short post.
Of course, there’s moral relativism and there’s just plain lack of morals.Some people get so bent out of shape because of their political prejudices that they will excuse anything because they fear their side being held accountable and perhaps losing power. And then they try and pretend that the real problem is the other side’s political prejudice, in this case suggesting that anyone who expresses concerns about our guys being the abusers isn’t really concerned about that, only in scoring political points. Talk about projection. If you want get your political arguments and moral perspective from someone who’s happy to consider dropping people out of planes in order to film them falling and dying just so they can say “up yours”, then I guess that’s your choice. I mean, you can either choose to be civilised or you can choose to behave in the same way as those you claim to despise. It’s pretty simple really.And then they try and pretend that the real problem is the other side’s political prejudice, in this case suggesting that anyone who expresses concerns about our guys being the abusers isn’t really concerned about that, only in scoring political points. Expressing concern is fine – but for six months? How many ways can you express concern. Should you do it every day for a year at the expense of all other stories. Is there a benchmark or is it like the Tampa/Children Overboard/ SIEV saga – everyday until someone notices that the country has gone on to other problems. I’ve never thrown any one out of a plane and don’t intend to. I would have thought most people would see the line about tossing Osama out of a plane etc as a comment on how strongly I feel about him and his obscene crimes against humanity. Still, it’s a pleasant thought. Whatever others think, The Abu Ghraib saga has grown out of all proportion to it’s actuall importance. It’s at risk of becoming a longer saga that the Nurembeg Trials. I’m a sick bastard as well.
Is it permissible for me to express the heartfelt wish that sick bastards like Kev and all the others who seek to justify these crimes, one day find themselves in an Abu Ghraib or some other evil hellhole, at the mercy of similarly evil people? “I come from a harder world”, waffles Kev. Yeah, right. We all come from the same world, you pathetic wanker. People like you just MAKE it harder.Mate, your comment confirms we come from a different world and I don’t make it harder, I just point out that winning this battle is harder than you can imagine and it is made harder by people dwelling on one mistake and ignoring the strategy and the realities and all the other facets of the campaign. I stand by my statement that the Left are breathing life into a carcase as they hammer at Bush and Howard.
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Nemesis is always the dribbling idiot,Kev. Its to cover the fact that he/she’s has been living under a rock until last year. The fake outrage is so transparent most will see through it, heck its already a none issue on the street.
You may choose to disbelieve it, for now, but there are already 10 murder investigations involving Abu Ghraib, and I’d lay odds that that’s still just the tip of the iceberg. That’s going a bit beyond the ‘bit of biff’ you endorse and seem to cling to, in disregarding the matter as serious.
It may ‘already be a non-issue on the street’ in Australia, but between this, and royally screwing with the CIA, Bush is going down. Mark my words.
The memo stating that in time of war, a President can just wilfully disregard any law he chooses will be the lining on the coffin of Bush’s Presidency, if not his own freedom.
Pulling numbers out of your arse and paraphrasing memos to fit your fantasies is not going to convince me.
Jeff,
I’m not aware of ten murder investigations and we both know that if there was any chance of this being a fact the media would be in a frenzy. Australian ABC lefties Kerry O’Brien and Tony Jones would be drooling and the press here and in the US would be beside themselves.
So maybe, maybe not – but certainly not enough hints to get so uptight about it.
If true it is certainly beyond the bit of biff that I endorse and should be pursued.
What was your point again? Ah..yes. A chance to put down on Bush.
Biggest drag in history.
The one sided 24/7 wall to wall coverage
is actually making people aware of how
biased the media is.
Specially the lack of media interest in the Berg
murder.
Incidentally, after 9/11, we were told images
of people jumping from buildings
wouldn’t be shown as it may inflame the
situation.
Obviously it depends on the media to dictate
which situations will suit inflaming.
Kev,
I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again. Abu Ghraib was the biggest beat up of the year. The left have seized upon it with gusto, finding reserves of disgust and outrage that remained untapped until they could find some way to direct it at Bush or a convenient proxy like Rumsfeld.
Re the allegation of 10 murder investigations involving Abu Ghraib, Mr Lawson…Perhaps you’d be so kind as to provide a link. Preferably to something a little more credible than whatreallyhappened.com or rense. Or would you have got that confused with 10 murder investigations for all of Iraq and Afghanistan? That’s 10 more than I’d like to see, but it does show that the US isn’t turning a blind eye to wrongdoing, doesn’t it?
In fact, I’d like to pose a question to the likes of Nemesis and Jeff Lawson.
I want to see a vibrant, secure, democratic state rise from the ashes of Saddam’s Iraq. A country tapping its oil wealth and providing opportunity for ALL of its citizens. A country that regards the West with not fear and loathing, but with mutual friendship and respect.
What do the lefties want to see in Iraq?
Every setback like the Abu Ghraib debacle is greeted with undisguised glee by the left, proof somehow that their anti-American dogma has been vindicated. I suspect that a smooth transition to a peaceful, democratic state in the next twelve months would be a disaster for the hate-America crowd. That’s why they get so upset whenever anybody dares to point out that being forced to roll around naked with other men might be wrong, but it ain’t an atrocity.
Stop waving the flag for the other team, boys. It doesn’t make you look clever. It makes you look like a bunch of dickheads who don’t understand right (kicking out Saddam) from wrong (flying planes into packed office buildings).
Once again Al Bundy, you’re bang on the money. I’m in agreement with you. I want to see a vibrant pragmatic Iraq that has the opportunity to govern itself in a unified manner free of intrusion from fundamentalist and zealots.
To the leftoids, they want to see Iraq fall and remain a quagmire. They hope for civil unrest and mass exodus from the nation (all of which hasn’t happened) just to deride and ostrecize the US, no other reason.
Jeff Lawson talks about 10 deaths, I guess he means and presumes in custody? Well Jeff, how many do you fugure have been executed in the same manner as Nick Berg, or doesn’t his death matter to a fucking cunt like you?????
I am here to inform you you pathetic oxygen theif that the militants daily execute civillian workers in the same grotesque manner simply because they are non-muslims. Now we could pack up an go home and then view all muslims in the same light as the fundamentalists view us, but no, we remain there because there has to be a purpose to the lives of most Iraqi’s.
I know that irks you because you want any reason you can get to criticise America and it’s allies you pedophile, but the truth is, Iraq is better off than it was since Saddam came to power and the proof is there.
All the left have left to do now is to have Peter Garrett go to Abu-Ghraib and sing another “I hate America song” and that will ice the leftoid cake.
Oh how easy it is to spew loathing upon the democratic society that fought for your pathetic worthless soul. Go to the middle east and try the same rhetoric against the islamic governments and see how long you last butt boy !!!
P.S. Sorry bout the language Kev, but the leftoids shit me to tears. Why don’t they stand out in front of the German or Japanese embassy’s and ask them for an apology???
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/thesunherald/news/world/8844419.htm
It probably won’t matter to the likes of you, as anyone who disagrees with your rabid blatherings can only be an “other”, an enemy, although the United States is my country, as well, and I have as much right to live here the way I want as anyone does.
I really can’t understand people like you, Scott, and it hurts my brain to try, although I figure I can have a rational discourse with Kev.
And yes, I really do resent Bush, but it depresses me that you would think it would bring me any pleasure at all, for any reason, to hear of such goings-on as what has happened at Abu Ghraib. For this hurts my country, and I do love my country, despite whatever you may think.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16835-2004Jun4.html
There, if you think the Washington Post is some kind of ”liberal paper’, then you have well and truly lost it.
I don’t much care what kind of country the Iraqis make of their country, Al, it’s not my country to worry about.
I care what kind of country the United States is.
And when I hear people saying things resembling “if you disagree with what I say, then you’re the enemy”, then I don’t see any kind of defender of democracy speaking.
Well Jeff you cant blame people thinking that your full of shit when you make alligations like this “there are already 10 murder investigations involving Abu Ghraib” and the refer to articles that say “The Army yesterday reported 16 more criminal investigations into possible misconduct by U.S. soldiers against detainees and civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan“. It does make me suspect that you are trying to sensationalize it.
“I don’t much care what kind of country the Iraqis make of their country, Al, it’s not my country to worry about.”
So does that mean you do not like the UN or any government aid going outside your country?
“And when I hear people saying things resembling “if you disagree with what I say, then you’re the enemy”, then I don’t see any kind of defender of democracy speaking.”
When I hear people inflating or possibly misleading the facts its not unfair to suspect there motives.
If you’re going to get personal, at least I can spell, lol. Lighten up. I misremembered, I suppose, but does the absolute number matter so much? Only 9, not 10? Oops, it’s not so bad, then.
As for your question about foreign aid, that seems like a non sequitur to me, so I’m not quite sure what to make of it. I don’t mind helping people, I just don’t equate helping people with killing them.
As for motives, what motives would you ascribe to me?
Am I to be considered a terrorist because I disagree with you? Is that the criteria?
“I suppose, but does the absolute number matter so much?”
One murder is to much,Jeff. But you can be disappointed in the .5 percent at the same time as being proud of the 99.5 percent that are doing good work.
So if don’t approve of statements like this “Coalition wankers can’t even keep the borders shut, too busy torturing kids and stealing.”
http://www.kevgillett.net/mt/archives/000334.html#comments then I hope you realize how over sensationalizing the facts encourages people like that person.
“As for your question about foreign aid, that seems like a non sequitur to me, so I’m not quite sure what to make of it. I don’t mind helping people, I just don’t equate helping people with killing them.”
Foreign aid sometimes prolongs suffering and kills more people then a war. How many people has Saddam killed lately? I asked because you show concern for Iraqi prisoners but seam dismissive of Saddams victims.
“As for motives, what motives would you ascribe to me?”
I’m trying to work that out.
“Am I to be considered a terrorist because I disagree with you? Is that the criteria?”
NO, not a terrorist.
I fail to see how some help to the Sudanese refugees could be worse for them, than the war they’re going through right now…although, since most of our troops are tied up in Iraq, I guess we can’t do much to help them, can we?
The last time I’m aware of, that Saddam killed large numbers of his people was in ’95 – because they were trying to rebel. Now, mind, I certainly don’t blame them for trying – but do you seriously mean to tell me that you think any government on earth wouldn’t kill people trying to overtake it by force??
I think that “the war on terror” would have been better dealt with, using police- and intelligence-type capabilities, rather than using military force against non-state actors. You don’t use a sledgehammer to kill a mosquito.
Why aren’t you people watching the Wallabies beat Scotland. 35-15 if anyone is interested.
Jeff
Giving aid to African countries almost needs an invasion force to ensure the right people get the aid and that it’s not traded off or given to the current Despot’s tribe only.
You don’t use a sledgehammer to kill a mosquito.
That’s a good analagy but not the way you imagined. It’s relevant when considering the initial battle of Coalition Vs Iraqi Army but since then, and we all knew it would happen, a full army has been required to maintain momentum. Now of course, with insurgents streaming in from every point of the moslem world, the case exists for more troops.
Forces get spread very thin in a Counter-revolutionary war that we are fighting at the moment. A disproportionately large conventional force is needed to combat a disproportionately
small CR force. Caches everywhere, supplies coming in from the eastern and the western reaches of Iraq, trrops likewise. Believe me, it’s a bitch to pin down
I said “sometimes” but since you brought it up would support military action in Sudan? People might die, innocent ones at that.
“The last time I’m aware of, that Saddam killed large numbers of his people was in ’95”
So you think “it’s not so bad, then”. And the thousands dying every year since then from him torturing,withholding food, medical supplies using electricity supply to control the population is “not so bad” either?
“but do you seriously mean to tell me that you think any government on earth wouldn’t kill people trying to overtake it by force??”
mmm, you just justified what Saddam did.
“I think that “the war on terror” would have been better dealt with, using police- and intelligence-type capabilities,”
I haven’t heard we aren’t you those as well.
“You don’t use a sledgehammer to kill a mosquito.”
Have you heard of the saying “death from a thousand cuts”?
Kev, I’m shifting domain so I’m doing this in-between.
My very point, if I wasn’t clear, was that if we’re going to use military force for humanitarian reasons, we should use them where the most people are suffering. Far more people are about to die as refugees from Sudan, than ever did under Saddam. Whether we should citizens to fight to save them is arguable, and I have no strong opinion on the matter.
And yes, I realize I somewhat justified Saddam’s actions. Any government will use force to protect itself, if you don’t believe me, you might want to read up on a little fracas called the American Civil War. 600,000 people killed, then. Without helicopter gunships.
Governments all over the world oppress their subjects, including China. Should we invade China, to liberate the Chinese, then?
Iraq was not threatening us. I’ll repeat that, Iraq was not threatening us. There was no way on earth for it to meaningfully do so, if it desperately wished to.
If you require so little reason, so little proof, to go to war, then I personally consider you very misguided.
Gary,
I know. Ive suffered from a dirth of sarcasism from P&C, Yobbo et al. Trust your’e back on by morning.
Jeff
if we’re going to use military force for humanitarian reasons, we should use them where the most people are suffering
Or, where the suffering is planned and implimented.
I see stable democracies in the ME as major answer to the world wide terrorist situation. Feed, clothe, educate in the western sense, emancipate the other half of the population (women) broaden minds and generally lift their level of existance from miserable to acceptable and then let them work from there.
Naturally enough the clerics are not going to take that lying down. Nor are the hardcore terrorists, hence the shit fight we are going thru now. They want the power themselves to force their weird laws on their citizens. We want to take it off them and give it the people.
I’m for the people,
Well, hell, Kev, if we’re talking pie in the sky, i’d like to see satellites beaming solar power down to base stations for electricity, so that we don’t have to have anything to do with them or their oil.
Which do you think would be cheaper and quicker? And more likely to work?
Remember Americans have had a better historical record of developing technology, than changing people ;-)
First post – short answer stable ME But I don’t agree that it’s pie in the sky. Even though you won’t gauge it from the press the plan is well on the way to working
Second I agree but that doesn’t exclude the fact that they might succeed this time – Shit, it hasn’t been tried for centuries and there is no precedence to work from but I have to agree with the general thrust.
It would appear you and I will agree to disagree and that’s cool but the chances are 12 months from the end of June things will be a lot more positive.
I’m hoping, anyway
I hope you’re right, too, mate. I really do.
Does it occur to you, Jeffrey, that the very fact that there are investigations into alleged deaths in custody means that the Bush administration is the pack of fascist murderers you imagine them to be. Further, Bush will the election in, no matter how hard you close your eyes and wish for him to go away.
…you’re also a dickhead.
uh oh, brain explosion of the embarrassing kind…
What I meant to say is this:
Does it occur to you, Jeffrey, that the very fact that there are investigations into alleged deaths in custody means that the Bush administration is not the pack of fascist murderers you imagine them to be. Further, Bush will the election in, no matter how hard you close your eyes and wish for him to go away.
…you’re also a stupid cunt.
murph, you need to get your mind-reading apparatus recalibrated, as I don’t believe you’ve ever heard me call them murdering fascists. But I’m willing to make a wager on the election, if you want :-)
He did serious damage to the CIA, do you really think they’re going to take that in stride? You may want to do some research…
If you’re capable of doing more than anonymous name-calling, that is.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/060804_coup_detat.html
Now, I can’t vouch for reliable that source is, but they do list the sources they ‘connect the dots’ from, and it’s worth a read and a think.
And who do you suppose gave Chalabi the information that we knew Iran’s codes?
I think this will be much more serious than Abu Ghraib.
Iv tried to be a little civil to you, Jeff . But I have agree with murph that your a dickhead. Next you’ll be referring to Michael Moore as a source.
Uh?
I read the Sun Herald article, and I don’t see anywhere the allegation about 10 (or 9 for that matter) deaths INVOLVING ABU GHRAIB. No I’m not being pedantic here. If you’d said 10 murder investigations in Iraq, I would have thought, “Fair enough.” But Kev’s post was about Abu Bloody Ghraib, and the not-atrocities there. It was in that context that you threw in the allegation about 10 murders AT Abu Ghraib. There has not, to my knowledge, been any information publicly released about murder investigations involving Abu Ghraib. In fact, it appears that there were 31 death allegations in Iraq, of which nine are ongoing.
Can’t be bothered registering with the Washington Post, but if you’d care to paste the relevant paragraph, I’d be pleased to see it.
Scott’s language aside, I think the worst I implied about you was that you’re a lefty. Call me a righty, I won’t cry. I didn’t call you the enemy or accuse you of hating your country, I’m just trying to wake you up to the fact that the enemy DOES take comfort from defeatism you espouse. I well remember when one of the Bali bombers personally thanked all Australians who’d spoken out against US and Australian colonialism or some crap like that.
And, as I recall, George W Bush expressed dismay over the Abu Ghraib incident, apologising to the Arab world and describing the acts perpetrated as ‘abhorrent’. But I’m just betting you’d dismiss that as an act of political expediency, right?
Your protestations ring of the hollow “don’t crush my dissent” line. The right to free speech does not imply that it be immune to criticism, especially when it is factually wrong, so don’t come the wounded patriot on me, buddy.
So Jeff
Now you see how petulant and petty name calling is, so there should be little wonder most of us think Latham is an idiot.
Yes you have every right to be offended by my rebuke, but it proved my point.
the ABC, Mark Latham and his anal retentive mate Bob Brown have no hesitation hurling derogatory remarks towards Mr Bush, yet lefties think it’s OK…
Abu-Ghraib has been aired over and over trying to find something more sinister than actually happened. Not to show sympathy towards the prisoners, it has all been done in an effort to eject G.W.Bush and John Howard from their respective offices. Mark Latham couldn’t give two fucks about the Iraqi prisoners, he just see’s it as an opportunity to increase his value in the polls.
Allegations of inquiries into deaths in custody and torture are just that until proven, but the Bush administration have already prosecuted personnel with more likely to follow yet the media haven’t let up with claims “That someone higher is responsible”. The media just want Bush gone.
I noticed no-one in the media or any opposition governments have asked for charges to be laid over Nick Berg, Fabrizio Quattrocci, Henrick Frandsen or Daniel Pearl. Why haven’t they aired their torture over and over. The media decided in 2001 after WTC that they wouldn’t show bodies falling from windows any more because it may fuel hatred towards muslims yet have little problem airing pics from Abu-Ghraib while admitting it has fuelled anger towards westerners.
The US worker killed in Saudi on the weekend was said to be killed because of Abu-Ghraib, hardly likely, but nonetheless it proves the media and oppostion governments waiting to pounce for victory love using it to incite the public..It has also given these terrorist a way to legitimise their murderous ways knowing that the media will endorse their view.
Who’s the real animals here???
the Bush administration have already prosecuted personnel with more likely to follow yet the media haven’t let up with claims “That someone higher is responsible”.
That might be because, oh, I don’t know — someone higher is responsible…
Are they really. Is that your informed view or is it just an anti-Bush view.
If you know who is responsible, please, enlighten us with your substantiated and irrefutable evidence.
The problem is that even if no-one of a higher position is found to be accountable, you lefties will still scream Conspiracy”.