Wake Up Australia
I take a week off to help at Legacy and the country goes mad.
We’ve been fighting Terrorism for a long time now and people still think it’s about cause and effect. The so called intellectuals think it’s all about scoring cheap points against John Howard – Jesus Christ, bloody well wake up!
It?s about our lifestyle, about our religion, our enjoyment of life, about their lack of education and resulting acceptance of myths as fact.
They may or may not have won in Spain but it doesn’t matter who’s in power there. From the Terrorists point of view, Spain is their country and was stolen from them 600 years ago. They don’t accept any umpires decision, let alone the voices of democracy. It’s theirs and they want it back. They want East Timor back in the fold as well and Australia will ever be a target for helping democracy overcome tyranny in that neck of the woods.
So we helped in Iraq – so bloody what. The media, the ABC and SBS all seem to think that the whole debate is about WMDs – Oh my God, there’s no WMD’s – Howard lied, Bush lied, Butler didn’t, Wilkie is a hero, we shouldn’t have gone in without UN sanction.
None of that matters
Get over it you dipshits. It’s about Moslem extremists trying to kill us Infidels and have their Shari law take precedence over our laws.
As Bush tries to get a democracy up and running in Iraq every left wing intellect and fool are trying to pull it down. Well, you had better start hoping he pulls it off. A democracy in the middle of the cauldron that is the Middle East is what the world needs and extreme Moslems dread. Holy Moses, they are thinking, if these people are educated and have a vote, we’ll never get a look in. They are fighting to maintain their power over the illiterates.
They are not fighting for Iraq, the point is not that just that the US are there. It’s the fact that the US still exists.
Jones on Late Line spends all his time missing the point – blaming everything on what Howard ever done or didn’t do. Jonesy, it might have escaped your notice but the problem is extremists are killing innocents and they are not, repeat not, doing it because Howard is a conservative.
Watch tonight?s SBS show on Hicks, the idiot at Guantanamo. There are lawyers around spruiking about human rights when the facts are, he was caught fighting for a foreign power. He abrogated any rights an Australian might enjoy when he enlisted with the enemy. There is no lengthy discussion needed here. If he actually was doing that then he stays incarcerated until the war is over. Were the fathers of these lawyers up in Thailand trying to get Aussie POWs released during WW2 because of human rights – no.
Let him rot there until the war is over – like all POWs have had to do.
Taxpayers should be very peeved that their taxes have paid for this pro-terrorist propaganda. Why didn’t the ATO just send the money over to the Taliban Propaganda Corps and leave out the SBS middleman – could’ve been cheaper.
We are at war and too many are aiding and abetting the enemy.
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A very simplistic view of an extremely complex issue
Not so, Niall. Some tend to overcomplicate matters seeing more problems than there are and subsequently have a singular inability to narrow the whole thing down to a couple of lines.
What would you like me to complicate. Do you think the WMDs are more important and deserve consideration all by themselves. Saddam had ’em, he was told to get rid of ’em by the UN, he didn’t – therefore he could still have ’em?
Nobody lied, Niall. It was reasonable to believe he still had them and there were a lot of reasons for going into Iraq, the fact that Iraq still hadn’t account for WMDs was one of them.
Intelligence reports are mostly only conjecture, particularly when there is no humint available. Nearly every country in the world, including most or Iraqs powerbase believed they still had them.
Whats your take on that? Why are they so important?
US in Iraq. Wouldn’t a democracy in the middle of all that shit be a good idea? An example to the Middle East people of how good a democracy can be – yeah, I know, it aint there yet but I figure the US will prevail and stay the distance.
Do you want me to believe that what the ‘Kelty said, Howard said, the Australian said’ semantic exercise is anything other than point scoring. Did you notice how the story died, picked up by the anti Howard push it was looked at by the people and thrown out. Lateline will most probably carry it for a bit like the 323 episode ‘Tampa’ witchhunt but, again, people will move on.
Did you watch SBS for the Hicks story. I didn’t and wont. It will be very long on Dad saying he’s confused but still my son, on lawyers quoting human rights, and how Guantanmo is a hell hole but very short on on his signing up to train and fight for the Taliban so he could kill Yanks and Aussies. There will be very little on his reported racism and anti-Jewish proclaimations.
If thats too simple then more words will only pad it out, not change the basic concept.
Niall; “simplistic”? “complex issue”?
You sound like Chirac and the rest of the “sophisticated, nuanced” bunch.
There’s nothing complex about a pack of dark-ages fundamentalist moonbats murdering innocent civilians to advance their sick agenda. They’re murderers, no more and certainly no less and they ought to be wiped out as a public health service.
Organisations like te ABC and SBS are helping to do their work for them, by endlessly white-anting Howard and the principled stand he took alongside our allies.
All it will take for these bastards to win will be a sufficient number of lefty governments in the West. The Left-to my knowledge- has never gone to war to preserve human rights and freedom. The record of the left is one of genocide and totalitarianism.
Which I guess makes the Labour Party the perfect bedfellow for Islamic militants.
Actually it’s a real simple issue Niall.
They want to kill or conquer us.
They want to do it because we opposed Islam keeping hold of East Timor and because we are not muslims.
Given to opportunity, they will kill you. they don’t care that you ‘feel their pain’.
So, pick a side – it’s one of the easier choices really, will you side with –
1. the people who will protect you and enshrine your (and a great many other peoples) rights in law, or
2. the people who will kill you based purely on your religion.
Choose.
Sigh! Niall continues on spiking comments with his one liners, no depth, no sense of irony that simply saying “simplistic” without elaborating IS simplistic in its self.. But this tactic works for him as people that genuinely wont to convey there views will grasp at the hope he will reciprocate. It is fruitless to waste good will on people like him whose only redeeming use is to show how dark humanity can get.
…fruitless to waste good will on people like him…
True, but he may actually debate the point one day and in the meantime – it’s fun.
Well Kev, you fortitude puts you above most.
Well put Kev, straight to the heart of the matter.
Well said, it is a simple issue. As stated by President Bush several years ago concerning terrorism. You’re either with us….or against us.
Good Post Kev. I find it interesting that those like Niall wish to make this a complex issue, yet fail to recognise the fact that to the terrorists, this is a very simple issue. They don’t like us for who we are and wish us to change or die. There is no middle ground we can come to, No third way, if you like. To them, they don’t want our platitudes, our mealy mouthed understandings. They just want us to convert ourselves to an evil hate-filled ideology or else die. Sounds pretty simple to me. We kill them before they kill us. Or have I missed a nuance here and there?
I’m so pleased you can see these things in black & white, Kev. I suppose it makes your life that much easier to live. I on the other hand prefer to look into issues, for example, yes, I agree that some, not all, Muslims would like to see western society pass into yesterday. Western society, on the other hand, would equally love to see Islam go the same way, as evidenced by the comments above. Now, I realise you and yours don’t care why these issues exist, you’d just like them to go away, but unless we, as in ‘we the human race’, take the time and effort to understand Al Qaeda, Wahabbism, etc and what makes them tick, there will be little chance of ever meeting them on even ground, let alone defeating the radical elements and saving the species. Make no mistake, this ‘kill or be killed’ attitude never solves anything. Eventually, be it next week, next year or in a century’s time, western society will have to face Islamic society and find a middle ground or face mutual extinction. It’s undeniable.
Thats the funny thing about a black and white situation Niall, it’s not that hard to see as being black and white.
Islam relegates us to 2nd class citizen status at best – look up “Dhimmi” that is your role if you choose to submit, otherwise you are to be killed.
Make a choice.
BTW Kill or be killed worked just fine on Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and countless other fascist organisations.
You just don’t get it, Harry, do you?
How someone can ignore the clear statements of our enemies and the actual passages in the Koran that list our position as either enemies or 2nd class citizens?
No Niall, I must admit I don’t understand that level of stupidity.
Read up on Dhimmi, that is your future – at least it is if your betters don’t win this war.
Still, the bright side is that the winner will treat you with the contempt you so richly deserve. No matter who it is.
Disagree Niall. Western society and my readers don’t want Islam to pass into yesterday. For one, they are still to come out of ‘yesterday’ and two, if they didn’t attack us no-one would wish them dead.
That’s the difference – if we do nothing they will still hate us but from our perspective, if they didn’t slaughter our women and kids we would go on trying to help.
Their claim that they hate us for what we have done to them is spite and jealousy for our success. Their claim that we are decadent is an opinion and shouldn’t lead to the demise of western civilization. They have done it to themselves. They are the ones that don’t educate their people- denying themselves the chance of success and it is themselves that subjugate their woman denying themselves 50 % of their workforce.
They are in the 12th century because they choose to be and it is their choice. We don’t demand they join us in the 21st century but they demand we join them in the 12th.
Niall presumes all RWDB are anti-Muslim well I can only speak for my self and say that is not true. Also I do not know any anti-Muslims so you would think Niall and others like him would practice this “attempting understand” towards there fellow countermen before lecturing others. It is not Muslims but terrorist I wont exterminated and it is not me but Niall that has trouble distinguishing between the two. If you think reading the Koran will help you understand the terrorist then you automatically tar all Muslim as terrorist. The motives for terrorist are universal in all societies and that is A LUST FOR POWER.
Sure, by all means let’s “understand” them.
We can kill more of the bastards that way.
By the way Niall, you weren’t too proud to take advantage of Western medicine and technology when you had your brain bypass, were you?
That’s all rather arrogant, Kev. They hate us because of what ‘we’ did to them, and they’re jealous of our success? I’m afraid you’re missing the point entirely. You’re right, in that they do hate us, but it has nothing to do with perceptions of capitalistic, moral or ethical success. Such things are relative anyway. They hate us because of religious differences, nothing more nothing less. Islam doesn’t tell them to hate, but certain of it’s interpreters do and it’s those interpreters we need to silence. Before we can silence them, we need to understand them in order to be able to out-think them. We need to be able to out-think them in order to find them. The loss of Ayman Al-Zawahri yesterday after supposedly being surrounded is a prime case in point. He got away. How? We don’t know. Wouldn’t you think, as a military man, such an operation would be fully cognisant of all options open to the quarry?
Islam by it’s very definition is a belief of peace and tolerance, even more so than christianity. I also seriously doubt your statement that we don’t demand they join us in the 21st century. If such was the case, what the hell are we doing in Iraq, and please don’t offer that pathetic excuse of regime change for the greater good. It’s well past any use-by date it might have had and certainly hasn’t made the lives of any western society any safer or less stressful. Similarly with your claims that it’s their culture which drives them to terrorist tactics because they oppress their women and restrict higher education to the politico-religious wanna-be’s. I’m not quite sure if that qualifies as a Strawman or just a simple argumentum absurdum. Either way, it’s a non-sensical argument. I’m interested though in your claim that if we do nothing they will still hate us but from our perspective, if they didn’t slaughter our women and kids we would go on trying to help. Are you advocating that we, as a western society, are obliged to actively oppose Islam in general because they, by default, will always hate us? If so, that’s the ‘black and white’ viewpoint I originally spoke of. Such a view makes no allowance for those citizens of Iraq, for example, who may be devout Shi’ites, but still manage to understand that the Aussie soldier patrolling his/her streets doesn’t mean him/her harm because of some ‘by default’ automatic will to kill. That average citizen will be a reasonable, rational human being, despite what some quarters might think.
I can see you & I rapidly coming to agreement on disagreement on this subject, but that’s fine with me because I believe you’re entitled to your opinion and welcome to it. Just so long as it doesn’t impinge on mine. It’s a pity some of your other commenters can’t see their way clear to a sensible logical debate in a similar vein, but then, not everyone has that capability, do they?
No counter points or incites just “you are wrong” and “I know all” from Niall. He mite be able to bluff small children but whether it is one line or a complete article they both have the same substance and impact from him.
So—because the average peaceful Muslim doesn’t want to kill Westerners, that means that we shouldn’t want to kill Islamic terrorists, just attempt to understand them.
Riiiight. Makes sense.
” Islam doesn’t tell them to hate, but certain of it’s interpreters do and it’s those interpreters we need to silence”
Bullshit it doesn’t tell them to hate us.
“:3:118: Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal.”
“:4:141: Believers, do not choose the infidels rather than the faithful for your friends. Would you give God clear evidence against yourselves?”
“:3:26: Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful (he that does this has nothing to hope for from God) except in self-defence.”
Like to try for the bonus points round now Niall?
“Wouldn’t you think, as a military man, such an operation would be fully cognisant of all options open to the quarry? ”
In a James Bond film, yes. in the real world no.
“Islam by it’s very definition is a belief of peace and tolerance, even more so than christianity.”
ohh goody, the bonus points round!
“:47:4: When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens.”
“:66:9 Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate.”
Well thats pretty peaceful and enlightened!
” I’m interested though in your claim that if we do nothing they will still hate us but from our perspective, if they didn’t slaughter our women and kids we would go on trying to help. Are you advocating that we, as a western society, are obliged to actively oppose Islam in general because they, by default, will always hate us? ”
Yep. their religion requires that they hate us and attempt to subjugate us (see the quotes from the Koran above).
Niall gives the game away when he says “You’re right, in that they do hate us, but it has nothing to do with perceptions of capitalistic, moral or ethical success. Such things are relative anyway.”
Moral relativism is scourge of the West, a denial that there is, in fact, right and wrong. If you are wrong, ultimately you and your values do not progress in the sciences or the arts. Individual creativity dies and the nasty, brutish and short lifestyle of the jungle takes over. It also denies that our material successes and freedoms are based on Christianity, the rule of law, the inherent worth of an individual, democracy etc.. What moral relativism has spawned is censorial groupism. If you criticize Islam you are branded intolerant, never mind that Islam itself is one of the most sexist, homophobic and violent dogmas to have disgraced this planet.
Yes, there are good Muslims who claim to mean us no harm, I’ve worked with them myself. But that doesn’t mean that when push comes to shove I’ll expose my back to them anymore than I would if they were Communists or Nazis.
Western society, on the other hand, would equally love to see Islam go the same way, as evidenced by the comments above.
And we are the ones oversimplifying?
I suggest you take a trip over to Lakemba sometime Niall, and view the minarets. Or the ones throughout western and southwestern Sydney. They aren’t on fire Niall. From this one might deduce that the western society within which they exist is not dead-set upon their destruction.
Niall, there is a schism within Islam, between moderates and people like bin Laden, Bashir, and so forth. People like Kevin and myself recognize this.
That side of the schism which declared war up the west did so in an attempt to garner greater Islamic following. Not to right some historical wrong. It was a bid for overall power, and one requires an enemy for this. Sadly, the atheistic Soviet Union was no longer an option.
We will destroy that enemy half of the schism Niall, ruthlessly, as is required. But to spin this rational attempt to defeat an aggressive foe, into some sort of blanket attempt by the Right to annihilate Islam itself is absurd.
Most people don’t want Islam dead. They want the fundies that use it as a justification for blowing trains and buses and planes up dead.
You may well have a point there, Mike and I would agree, that painting Western Society with the same brush as the likes of Gravett is unfair and inaccurate. Your assessment is a sound one and worth exploring. I am aware, of course, of what you’re saying, in that not all of Islam is fundamentalist and radical, in fact I stated as much in what I wrote. I also agree that it’s the ‘interpreters’ of Islam that require shutting down, which I also wrote on, so in effect, you view and mine are not all that far removed. The crux of my reply, however, not withstanding the gibberish of those who believe they are correct no matter what, remains that the issue is not one of black and white definitions. Something that you yourself have indirectly admitted to in your statement that a schism exists within Islam. Pity Kevin hasn’t deigned to reply as it’s his view I’m really interested in.
The part that is not fundamentalist and radical is not repudiating the part that is.
When the Wehrmact was advancing, there was little opposition to the Nazis in Germany.
and Niall, don’t email me again – they are direct quotes from the Koran, if you don’t like them, take them up with Allah or raise it here.
Niall can be found at 0416118736 for discussion on his views. Niall will respond to all SMS, and voice messages. Thank you.
Clearly, Harry, You’ve made no attempt to understand what it is you’ve searched for and posted here. Your ‘direct quotes’ from the Qoran are anything but, unless you speak and read arabic and aramaic. Thanks for ratifying my point.
If anyone does wish to discuss matter in point, feel free to use the mobile number so kindly posted by the lone gumnan.
Do you speak and read Arabic and Aramaic,Niall. If not then how do you make this claim “Islam doesn’t tell them to hate”? I’m not trying to prove Islam does, just pointing out Niall`s bizarre thinking.
I have been up at Double Island Point for two days but now I’m back to the real world. I think I prefer the beach!
Strawman, simple argumentum absurdum or nonsensicle ? a machine gun burst of clever words. Niall, if it?s not their culture that drives them to attack us then why the hell do they? With ?Culture? being the sum of all their parts and oppression and lack of education being a part of that sum ? not all of it (and semantics bring none of it.)
Are you advocating that we, as a western society, are obliged to actively oppose Islam in general because they, by default, will always hate us?
No! Not oppose Islam in general because they, by default, will always hate us? But oppose killers because they will always be killers.
Before we can silence them, we need to understand them in order to be able to out-think them.
Yes and no. Education is an answer for their problems and we do need to understand them, unfortunately these are long term answers and we have an immediate requirement. Osama bin Laden is killing our women and kids now and we don?t need to spend too much time trying to work him out.
I have worked him out ? he is trying to kill us and we need to stop him. We don?t have the time to ?understand? him and others first and then, in neat orderly sequence, silence him. It?s to big a task and will take too long and leave too many dead women and children.
I?m presuming here that your ?understand? is deeper than? intelligence? or ?knowing your enemy?
They hate us because of religious differences, nothing more nothing less.
No ? I can?t see it – there has to be more. They burn up with the injustice of us having the living standards that we do while, they reason,? we have the oil – how come we don’t have the rest?. They don’t realize it is our education that makes the difference. Maths, Science, Arts, humanities and a touch of culture and religion -not the other way around.
The Mullahs may well be aware of the difference but neglect to mention it when preaching to the ignorant. They are after soldiers for their Crusade and, as always, only the old soldiers know the full story.
I see my five kids with tertiary education placing religion way down in their lists of priorities. They would have trouble understanding the Catholic ? Protestant arguments of my youth, let alone insane Moslems trying to kill us for just being what we are.
Yes, we most probably will always agree to disagree as I clearly place a different emphasis on problems. You?re right about understanding but how long is the ?understanding? phase of battle? Should it run parallel with the battle or precede it? What sort of priority did Churchill give to ?understanding Hitler? Not much. A lot to intelligence, some serious study of ?know your enemy? – but understanding, little.
From a military viewpoint they are the worst kind of enemy. We represent a huge target with a zillion places to attack and it?s hard to have troops everywhere. If the enemy don?t hold their own life in high regard and don?t care about killing women or kids then how can you defeat them?
An answer from history ? Berlin and total war
Your ‘direct quotes’ from the Qoran are anything but, unless you speak and read arabic and aramaic…
Niall, you are an utter fuckwit. Case closed.
“Clearly, Harry, You’ve made no attempt to understand what it is you’ve searched for and posted here. ”
What sad bullshit Niall, explain to me how
“:66:9 Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate.” or
“:4:141: Believers, do not choose the infidels rather than the faithful for your friends. Would you give God clear evidence against yourselves?”
Is a mistranslation from, “live and let live”.
If it is your belief that the Koran cannot be translated into english, feel free to explain how and why it was.
You’re as sad as that last pair of Muslim converts who took a priest in Victoria to court for publically and accurately quoting the Koran.
Thanks Kev. Interesting viewpoints. Sorry you don’t appreciate the finer points of debate but there you have it. We’re all different. Oh, on Winston Churchill and Hitler? I think Winston did quite a lot of understanding his enemy, and had him mostly sorted by 1939. After all, he’d had seven years to watch and absorb by then. The west has been watching Bin Laden longer and still don’t know when to move and when to watch.
You might have something when you say Islam is jealous of the west. After all, wasn’t Islam the pre-eminent culture of its age? That age is long past now. I still believe it’s centred on religion though. Religion is a powerful tool for inciting the masses and the inciters are the highly educated Islamists. Those people aren’t jealous of us.
Thanks for the exchange, it’s always enjoyable to exercise the mind and get others viewpoints. Besides, someone has to feed the chooks :)
Niall. I think my ‘know your enemy’ is your ‘understanding’
Militarily we could attack Hitler – we knew where his troops were – Bin Laden is another matter.
‘A tool to incite’ is a given but it isn’t necesarily the the only tool in the box.
A simple search of the online Koran for “unbeliever” reveals:
“http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=unbeliever&size=First+100”.
I think Harry is on stronger ground than Niall.
In the interests of equal time, I did the same thing with the bible:
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?SearchType=AND&language=english&searchpage=0&search=unbeliever&version=NIV“.
The bible’s not happy with unbelievers either, but it’s far less obsessed and hostile towards them.
“Thanks Kev. Interesting viewpoints. Sorry you don’t appreciate the finer points of debate but there you have it.”
Oh, I see now. ‘the finer points of debate’ = evading the question.
OK, I’m on net with that now, thanks Niall.
At risk of lowering the tone of the debate, I’ll ask again – Niall, explain to me how
“:66:9 Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate.” or
“:4:141: Believers, do not choose the infidels rather than the faithful for your friends. Would you give God clear evidence against yourselves?”
is a mistranslation from, “live and let live”.
Again, I sincerely hope that asking you to actually respond to the issue you raised and justify the position you have taken, doesn’t lower the tone of debate too far…
Here’s a solution to the Hicks issue which should appeal to all concerned.
He was, by his own admission, a member of the Taliban making war on the legitimate, UN-recognised government of Afghanistan. Why not give him to the Afghans. He is a convert to Islam and should therefore be proud to be judged by the standards of other Moslems.
And we could help out by sending the Afghans a Vegemite jar in which to put what’s left of him once they’re done, and a pre-paid mailer addressed to his dear old Dad in Adelaide.
Damn but I’m a compassionate bastard!